Rifle primer question

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I use federal small rifle primers which are supposedly the "softest cup" and haven't had one pop as the bolt locks up.
European primers tend to be harder than typical US primers, wolf being the hardest.
 
The only std primer that my AR's sets off (AD) on a single feed bolt release is Federal. Normally the bolt is slowed down by feeding from a magazine. Load one in the chamber, then release the BCG and see what happens.. My guns will set off a std Fed primer 80% of the time doing this. I use either Rem 7 1/2 or CCI #41's.
 
The only std primer that my AR's sets off (AD) on a single feed bolt release is Federal. Normally the bolt is slowed down by feeding from a magazine. Load one in the chamber, then release the BCG and see what happens.. My guns will set off a std Fed primer 80% of the time doing this. I use either Rem 7 1/2 or CCI #41's.
My Armalite AR10 has a spring around the firing pin to prevent this. Eugene decided the AR15 didn't need one. Very Interesting to hear that it's actually a potential problem.
 
The only small rifle primers that I am aware of which are restricted in their use to low pressure rounds are Remington 6 1/2. These are indicated for use in low pressure rounds like 218 Bee and 22 Hornet. They are not indicated for use with 223, for example. These primers are reported to have a thinner cup.

On the other hand, the Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers are indicated for use in 223 and have a thicker cup than the Rem 6 1/2 primers.

Bayou52
 
My Armalite AR10 has a spring around the firing pin to prevent this. Eugene decided the AR15 didn't need one. Very Interesting to hear that it's actually a potential problem.

To be argumentative, Eugene Stoner did not put a spring around the firing pin. But it is clear from the Ichord hearings, that Eugene Stoner had never conducted kinematic studies on the impact of the firing pin and or conducted an analysis of the probability of primer ignition.


Icord report page 4560

Mr. Stoner. Well, yes, because I knew that the rifle was, you know, was going to be used by the armed service and I wanted to make sure that we had adequate background on it before we went into it. Because the history, and all the testing that was done with the IMR propellants. We had another thing that happened on the Marine Corps test that went with that. We had some inadvertent firings of the weapon due to the primer that we were using. We were using a commercial primer in that round which is relatively soft and sensitive, and the Marines, on their firing, on their known distance range, would single load the weapon. They would put a round in the chamber and then let the bolt go home by pushing the closing button on it or the bolt catch, and the inertia of the firing pin would fire the weapon sometimes this way.

It was a very low frequency, but it did happen. So, of course, they wanted something done about it, and the Army found out about this. There were a couple of solutions. Either desensitize the primer, make it out of a thick material, or lighten up the firing pin. Well, what I recommended was lightening up the firing pin because I didn’t see-if you desensitized the primer too much it could cause failures to fire in the field.

In other words, we wouldn’t have enough energy to fire the primer under all conditions. And I-in this technical data package they decreased the sensitivity of the primer at the same them they went in and put the ball propellant in. So these were two things I objected to with Mr. Vee.

Here again, I didn’t know what the effects would be because we didn’t have all this test data, I mean testing, behind us that we had on the other ammunition. While the design on the firing pin, to lighten it, which was subsequently done by Colt, was a relatively simple thing, and in my opinion, wouldn’t detract from the performance of the weapon any. As I say this weapon was tested for years and years and before this inadvertent firing ever come up and it come up because probably we had a batch of ammunition where the sensitivity level on these primers were on the low end, or, I should say, the high end of sensitivity, and also, the fact that there were firing the weapon in a way that they formerly didn’t before, which was single loading, when it was an automatic weapon.

Usually the weapon was loaded from the magazine and when the rounds were stripped out of the magazine like it was intended to be used, this slowed the bolt down enough that you didn’t have the impact velocity to cause an inadvertent firing.

There were actually two things that I took exception to on that. I didn’t sit in on the Board that came up with the ammunition specification. I wasn’t asked to. I am not in the ammunition business. But, I have a good deal of interest in the ammunition due to the fact- usually you can’t change the ammunition without causing a change in the performance of the weapon.


Besides verifying that the early M16's slamfired, what Stoner claims is the real problem, that the USMC was not using the weapon properly, because they were not always firing from the magazine, is in fact, pure hogwash. The M16 procurement revealed that the Armalite and Colt Organizations did little in examining the technical performance issues of their rifle. In this instance, Stoner only knows about primer sensitivity as a concept. He does not know how much energy is required to ignite an average primer, and he does not know the kinetic energy of his firing pin. It turns out, if you study this, the kinetic energy of his early firing pin was always above the "none fire" limits of commercial primers. None fire is a very important safety criteria: no primer is supposed to ignite when hit by a firing pin whose kinetic energy is less than or equal to the "none fire" limit. Stoner's design, the primers were always being hit by a firing pin whose kinetic energy exceeded the "none fire" limit.

What the military did, was to design a less sensitive primer

qndMuBK.jpg


and reduce the weight of the firing pin.

NfzvEgN.jpg


I know Armalite tested their AR10's without a firing pin spring, and had in battery slamfires with military ammunition. Armalite had been asked by some elite military unit for AR10's, and Armalite thought that eliminating the spring would be a good thing, logistically. And then they tested one of those rifles without the firing pin spring and after encountering slamfires, put the spring back. I think the AR10 firing pin is too long to thin it out without increasing the probability of breakage.

fM6Qc9S.jpg


You can run more sensitive primers in an AR15, but make sure the muzzle is pointed down range each time you chamber a round. Having had a slamfire in an AR15, and having seen AR15 slamfires, it is extremely disconcerting when the rifle slamfires. And even though the slamfire is due to primer sensitivity, and thus statistical, everyone around you will consider you too dangerous to be around.

The NRA banned loading on the stool. Back when M1a's and bolt guns ruled highpower, you put the butt of the rifle on the shooting stool, pressed a round in the magazine, and for the M1a, tripped the bolt release. No problem with slamfires as the muzzle was pointed up, and gravity slowed the bolt. But then, AR's took over the firing line. I used to see AR shooters balancing their muzzles on their shooting stool, dropping a round in the chamber and hitting the bolt release. AR15's slamfired through the stool and that is why it is now illegal to load on the stool. I can just imagine the consternation on the line when some poor schmuck blew out the bottom of his shooting stool with all his equipment inside. I hope no one got a hole in their foot. A 223 round in the foot would cause a nasty wound.

Notice how many rounds the guy fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive.


 
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I wouldn't call that argumentative. I'm not arguing anything other than the fact that my Armalite AR10 has a spring and none of my AR15s do nor does my DPMS AR10. I'm aware that Eugene opted for the lighter firing pin as the solution to the slamfire problem. The rest of that was new and interesting so thanks for that info on slamfires slamfire :). Perhaps a titanium firing pin would be a good investment. I don't routinely use federal primers (although I have some from the panic of 2008-16), I usually use Winchester or CCI 400s. I've never had a slamfire and I don't want that experience.
 
My Armalite AR10 has a spring around the firing pin to prevent this. Eugene decided the AR15 didn't need one. Very Interesting to hear that it's actually a potential problem.

I installed the JPI HP bolt/FP in my LR-6.5 CM. It is a greatly reduced in weight. I never did retest to see if it would stop the slam fires. It did eliminate primer flow, since the FP hole and FP had minimal clearance. The std one had over 0.004" clearance and I was flowing badly and piercing primers. All good now with the JPI installed.
 
Great response ... @Slamfire ... errr about slamfires.

Seriously though, Thank You.

FWIW... I "think" Ginix makes 5.56 specific primers. I realize that doesn't answer the OP's question... but..

Also... it sounds like SR GINIX primers tend to be a tight fit.

ginex-small-rifle-primers-free-shipping-hazmat-5000ct.jpg
 
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Perhaps a titanium firing pin would be a good investment.

I purchased a couple Titanium firing pins from Palmetto State Armory a short while back. They weren't that expensive. If it makes a person feel more comfortable with the potential slam fires, it sounds like a inexpensive investment.

Here's one for their AR9 for $15. These guns are recoil operated and have a firing pin spring. I guess titanium is extra insurance?

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-custom-9mm-ar9-pcc-titanium-firing-pin-116004.html

Here is their pin for an AR15 for $13.45. Didn't find the link for it directly through them... but here it is.

https://www.paintball.bargains/products/psa-custom-ar-15-titanium-firing-pin-116002-116002
 
I purchased a couple Titanium firing pins from Palmetto State Armory a short while back. They weren't that expensive. If it makes a person feel more comfortable with the potential slam fires, it sounds like a inexpensive investment.
yeah, there's no end to the inexpensive investments you can make. As a reloader, it probably makes sense to buy a little insurance though. If slamfire wasn't an actual possibility, I don't think Armalite would have included a spring in their AR10s which, of course, have a much heavier firing pin than an AR15 so that is probably a consideration. I was trying to get an idsea of how common or rare the event is and I came across this THR poll from October of 2021 so I'm going to post the image and a link to the poll which is still running. Looking just at the poll, it seems that it isn't really all that rare so maybe a titanium firing pin is a good idea. I, incidentally, found this company which makes all kinds of titanium AR15 parts including firing pins. Made in Montana, USA too.
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I noticed this right off the bat:
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.

I gotta say, I've loaded a lot of CCI 400s into ammunition used in AR15s. I should probably get a titanium firing pin.
I load them all the time in a bolt action with zero concern. The cci41 is the correct primer for the application
 
I load them all the time in a bolt action with zero concern. The cci41 is the correct primer for the application
I'll buy some if they're available but I haven't seen them in a while. I was lucky to snag 2,000 CCI 400s from Brownells last week and I have about another 3,000 of them in reserve. Just to see, I just primed a case with an older CCI 400 and dropped it into the chamber and closed the bolt with the bolt release with no magazine inserted and I only got a slight indentation as expected but no bang. I clean all my pockets, uniform them and visually and tactually confirm that every primer is below flush. A good experiment might be to prime a few cases but leave a peace of corn cob media in the pocket so the primer is forced to remain flush or 1-2 thou proud even as the firing pin hits it and drop them in the chamber and see if the firing pin can ignite it when you allow it to close with no magazine. I have seen similar experiments where the primer was seated proud and the firing pin actually pushed it deeper into the pocket and didn't initiate a slamfire. I've not seen it done in a way that would prevent the primer from being pushed in but I haven't really scoured the internet either.
ETA :
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The one on the left is the one I just mentioned of course and the one on the right is from some cases that i loaded and shot a couple weeks ago with CCI 400 primers. the load is not anywhere near 62,000 psi as I'm using varget and I don't think you can realistically stuff enough Varget into a 5.56 case to hit 62,000 psi. The CCI 400 is rated for up to 40,000 psi. 26 gr of Varget develops 50,200 psi behind the 69 gr sierra bthps (seated to 2.235") I'm using according to the first source I found. I'm running around 25.3 gr. seated at 2.255. Between 24 and 26 gr of powder, there's an 11,000 psi difference. We could assume then that each grain is contributing around 5,500 psi and each tenth of a grain would be 550 psi. I'm sure it's not that perfect but it's close enough. so 25.3 gr would be in the neighborhood of 46,350. I'm seating the bullet further out as well which would likely further reduce pressure closer to 40,000 psi and even if it doesn't, I'm OK with ~46,350 psi and the primers seem like they are too. The primer on the right doesn't look like it was anywhere near pierced or flattened or cratering or blowing out. It all looks good to me.
 
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I have seen similar experiments where the primer was seated proud and the firing pin actually pushed it deeper into the pocket and didn't initiate a slamfire. I've not seen it done in a way that would prevent the primer from being pushed in but I haven't really scoured the internet either.

Take a gander at this article:

Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer

I consider it a great article. If you read it, you see that high primers are the most common cause of misfires. The author explains that the primer anvil has to be firmly seated, and the anvil gap set, or the primer will no go bangie! If the primer is high, the anvil is not going to be resting on the bottom of the primer pocket.

I want to say, I lived through the period, where the Army Ordnance Bureau and their stooges at the NRA promulgated a lie that only high primers and your worn out receiver bridge could cause slamfires. The Army Ordnance Bureau pretended that the M14/M1 rifles and ammunition were perfect, and that any problems that did happen, were all due to user misconduct. The NRA was fully behind this. Both of these organizations deliberately misdirected the problem of slamfires away from primers and primer sensitivity for decades. Quite literally, there was no such thing as primer sensitivity, a primer was a primer, was a primer. This worked when the only semi automatics that civilians could get their hands on were M1 Garands and M1a's. And even then, there were not many of those out there.

From the in print trail, the coverup started just when civilians highpower competitors were getting their hands on Garands, which would have been the late 1950's early 1960's. At the time, you could get a National Match Garand from the DCM by attending the National Matches at Camp Perry and buying one. It took a lot of work to get a Garand.

Civilians were duplicating their bolt gun reloading practices, because they did not know better, and were having out of battery slamfires. I can't tell you how many shooters told me they neck sized their long range ammunition for their M1a's, which I thought suicidal. They thought, because they had read it in gun magazines, that neck sizing produced more accurate ammunition. No one had warned them that the firing pin was tapping on the primer before the lugs were engagement. Shooters just did not know better., and frankly, did not want to know better. It bothers people when they are not in total control of all situations. However, you cannot create a higher probability event of a slamfire in a Garand mechanism than to neck size your brass and use a Federal primer. Federal match primers were very popular among match rifle shooters. (anything with the word Match sold like hot cakes!) Also, less sensitive primers were not on the market so there was not much choice between primers, but then, no one knew. The guys at the NRA were not talking about it, they were covering for industry. CCI did not introduce their military primer product line, that is CCI #41's and #34's till 1999. Up to then, the only primers on the market were the more sensitive commercial primers with the most sensitive primers being Federals.


The Garand/M14/M1a/M1 carbine/Mini 14 all have a free floating firing pin and that firing pin can contact the primer before cam down. More out of battery slamfires have been reported with this family of actions than any other. In 1961, Springfield Armory is fighting for its M14 rifle, and for its life, against the Colt M16, and that is when the first American Rifleman article appears "proving" the only causes of slamfires are worn out rifles and high primers. That is, the rifle is perfect, and the only faults are due to user created issues. (Boeing claims the same thing in their Boeing 737 MAX crashes) Slamfire deniers do not acknowledge primer sensitivity as a cause.


More or less, this decades old lie got pretty thread bare when civilians bought AR15's in the millions, sometime in the mid 1990's. The AR15 does not have a receiver bridge (Garand/M14 slamfire deniers call it a safety bridge) and plenty of reports surfaced of brand new AR15's slamfiring with factory ammunition. If you want to run into ardent slamfire deniers go to www.m14forum.com. The only allowed causes of slamfires on that forum are user caused: high primers and a worn rifle.

During the Reagan administration lots of foreign semi automatic rifles arrived on shore, and lots and lots of slamfires due to primer sensitivity have been reported for military service rifles, such as AK47's, SKS, FAL's, MAS 49's. A particularly bad one is the FN 49. For such a rare rifle, it is easy to find accounts of ruined FN49's due to out of battery slamfires.

A high primer can cause a slamfire if the primer pocket is shallow, or if spaces are inserted into the bottom of the primer pocket. Then the anvil is fully supported and the primer is above the case, and if hit hard enough by the bolt face, it will ignite. That's how Wayne Faatz did it in his article on slamfires in the M1 Garand.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/m1-garand-slam-fires-potential-causes-solutions/

Wayne spent so much time and effort getting his primers to slamfire, that his early point about primer sensitivity were forgotten by readers. Wayne could not get his high primers to ignite until he inserted spacers under his primers. This article was provided with each Springfield Armory M1a as a warning against high primers. Which, even then, is a misdirection. The primary cause of slamfires in the Garand mechanism is sensitive primers, not high primers. But blaming high primers for slamfires allows the manufacturer a certain level of deniability to the customer. They can, and do, argue that the design is perfect, the manufacture is perfect, and any slamfires that happen to a customer are his fault. When in fact, something intrinsic to the design is that the mechanism allows firing pin contact with the primer before bolt lug engagement.

This is something that Stoner did not allow. The AR design only allows firing pin contact with the primer if the lugs are in battery.

However, the AR will slamfire out of battery, which was totally incomprehensible to me. Until a poster pointed out the issue of bolt bounce. What happens is the firing pin contacts the primer when the lugs are in battery, ignites it, but the ignition is slightly delayed, and due to carrier/bolt bounce, the lugs are rotated out of battery just as the full ignition starts. Out of battery slamfires in the AR mechanism are extremely rare, but they happen. And therefore, I recommend not using sensitive primers in the mechanism for any reason. It is better to use mil spec primers, which reduce the chance of a slamfire, be it in or out of battery. The probability of a slamfire with any primer type is still finite, because primer sensitivity varies within the lot, but the less sensitive primers will slamfire less frequently.

Never chamber a round in a semi automatic with the muzzle pointing at anything you don't want to put a hole in. Bottom line, you are not fully in control of the ignition of these things.
 
I did see that people were saying they were very hard to seat,
I don't know if it want to pay triple price just to end up crushing half of them.
maybe just wait some more,
 
I load them all the time in a bolt action with zero concern. The cci41 is the correct primer for the application
I will not buy the CCI #41 again. They have a slightly smaller diameter and the fit is not as tight as it can be. The Winchester #41 is standard size and they fit a lot nicer. I also had good luck with CCI SRP and WSR
One other primer that has the same problem is the Magtech SP primer. I bought them out of desperation and now I'm looking to buy European brass like S&B, PPU or anything that will give me a tight fit.
 
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