rifle scope troubles

[rc109a]

Ok, my father just got a new Savage 16 left hand. He put burris rings and base on it. In an attempt to boresite it he is unable to get enough elevation on the scope. At 25 yards he is shooting over 12 inches high and cannot bring it down any more. He tried two different scopes with the same problems, not enough turns (goes to the stops) to bring it down to a reasonable level. He shot shot it and it is shooting exactly where the boresite shows him he would. Any ideas? It is a Burris FFL2. He lives too far away for me to look into. I did check the base number and it is the correct ones. Can you help out? Thanks:banghead:

 

[41magsnub]

Are the front and back bases swapped? Assuming there are front and back bases.. I made that mistake once with similar symptoms.

 

[rc109a]

He told me the windage adjustment is on the rear. It is a one piece base.

 

[rcmodel]

If he has Burris Signature Pos-Align® rings, they may have eccentric inserts inside each ring to change scope alignment without using the scope settings.

Go here and scroll down about halfway for a better explanation:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html


rcmodel

 

[Cougfan2]

What kind of scope is it? He might want to try putting a different scope on it to see if he has the same problem.

If he still has the same problem, I would ask Burris to swap out a new mount and try again.

 

[rc109a]

He has tried a bushnell and another that I don't know the name of right now. I am checking to see about the rings.

 

[rc109a]

He has the standard rings, no inserts. It is happening with 3 different scopes. I don't like the base since it is set up for a right handed gun and this is a lefty. The cutout is facing right. I am just at a loss as to what to do next. I told him to call SWFA (place were he bought the rings and base from and see what they say. Any other ideas?

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Well, yeah, put the correct base on the lefty action would be my first step. And get the rings that are designed for 'that' base/action. There are a good many actions that require different height rings front/rear for the base or even when there's no one piece base used.

OK, here's a trick.

• Set both windage/elevation scope adjustments to mid adjustment
• Set the scope to the highest magnification
• Pull the bolt
• Losen the front scope ring top cap
• Losen the rear scope ring top cap screws about a turn or so. Keep it snug, but not as tight as a finished install
• Cradle the rifle in a rest where you can look down the barrel through the action to see the target at say.. 50yds where you can only see just a 4" bullseye or so through the barrel. Center that bull in the view. From now on, don't move the rifle.
• Use pieces of paper cut to shim under the front scope tube
• Adjust the crosshares to be on the bullseye or just toward the top. Once the scope is on target, measure the thicknesses of paper. That's how much difference you'll need in either front+ or rear- ring height.

I've seen people put scopes on rifles rotated 90 degrees left before. Be sure he's not doing that.

-Steve

 

[rc109a]

Steve
Thanks for the information. He called a SWFA and they told him it was his rifle's beading. Not sure how that would have any bearing. My dad took everything apart, set the torque, and rechecked the base again. He is going to pick up a new base and rings int he morning and see if that changes anything. If that does not work, then we will be looking at your suggestions. He justs wants to get on the paper with his new gun. He has been waiting for weeks to get it...

 

[bkjeffrey]

Ill bet the front and rear scope rings need to be swapped. Just my 2.

 

[moosehunt]

Not that hard to figure out the problem, whatever it might be. First, measure the differnce between the top of the two mounting surfaces on the rifle (that being the bridge and the the reciever ring) from the bore axis. Now, measure the thickness of the mount at these two points. If the difference in the rifle measurements is not compensated for in the mount base, then it must be compensated for in the rings. Measure them. If things don't add up to equivalents, you have a problem. Any one of the three can be adjusted, but adjusting the rifle is the hardest, and unless it is actually faulty, not highly recomended. With the base on the rifle, check for space in the fore and aft of the contacting surfaces. Check closely. A 1 or 2 .001's gap could suggest a big problem. It would mean that the base mount doesn't fit flush, strongly suggesting that it is not the correct base. Another easy way to check this is to tighten down only the front screws. no screws in the rear, and check for space between the gun and the rear. No space? Now reverse the process--tighten down the rear with no screws in the front. If the base fits properly, there should be no more than a .001 or so of space with either test. If there is, the base is wrong or the gun is faulty (doubtful, but possible). My inclination based on the limited info provided is that the base is not correct.

 

[rcmodel]

I'm wondering where folks find these rings that come in mis-matched sets, and come in varying heights of a few thousandths?

It just don't work that way!

Scope rings should come in matched sets of two.
They are, or should be, both exactly the same height.
Rings are only made in Low, Med, and High heights, and there is about 2/10" difference between each one.
There is no way to use one of each height on the same rifle without bending the scope tube.

It sounds to me like this problem is being caused by the wrong mount.
Burris lists one mount for all Savage Model 16 rifles, including both the right and left hand models.

Leupold lists four separate & different mounts for both a Model 16 "round receiver" action, and another for the Model 16 receiver, in both left & right-hand types.
This leads me to think there are two different Savage Model 16 receiver contours out there.

If the mount in question fits the rifle receiver contour correctly, it should work correctly. If it doesn't, you will have to shim up the front end between the mount and the receiver to bring the POI down.

Bedding would have to really be way out of whack, with tremendous forend pressure springing the barrel upward to cause it to shoot a foot high at 25 yards with all the scope adjustment used up.
I would rule that out right off the bat as not plausible!


rcmodel

 

[alsaqr]

"I'm wondering where folks find these rings that come in mis-matched sets, and come in varying heights of a few thousandths?"

In a word, China. Many Weaver rings and Leupold rings are made in China. A friend recently brought me a Remington 700 to scope along with Leupold mounts and rings-made in China. Mounted the scope and had the same problem this gent is having. Friend took the mounts and rings back to China Imports (Wal-Mart) and I bought a set of made in the USA Leupold rings and mounts. No more problem.

 

[rcmodel]

Oh, I understand that!
Chinese scope rings are, well, I can't say that!

What I didn't understand was folks recommending he use scope rings a few thousandths different front & back.

You can't just run out and buy them on purpose made off a few thousandths different!


rcmodel

 

[John4me05]

I have heard that with different manufacturers that you should use the top that mounted on that base of the ring set... You get 2 rings in a pack.. If you take the top off of ring A and put it on ring B it could throw something out of whack... These were supposed to be rings machined form 1 solid piece of metal...

 

[rc109a]

Ok, it is the wrong base. I asked that question to SWFA and they said there is only one base for a model 16. When we swapped it for a new base and Zeiss rings, guess what? On target at 100 yards. I think he got a weaver base, but not sure. When I finally seen the pictures it was so obvious the base was wrong. I cannot belive that they say that there is a universal one piece base for a left and right hand gun. Does not make sense... Well at least rcmodel comment made some sense. thanks everyone for the help...

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

"Well, yeah, put the correct base on the lefty action would be my first step. And get the rings that are designed for 'that' base/action."

Yup, that's what I said. And I'll have to agree with the experienced RCmodel. But I know people that have for what-ever reason that have had to order different height rings or have bases modified. Now, this could have been from improper machining/gun smithing I suppose. My little paper trick has worked with some of the cheaper ring sets. Looking through the parts bin, just a mix and match -then lap, gets the job done. Or I've heard of some guys lapping the highest ring until things are lined up. Still, for an outlet to say that the bedding was bad, Yeah, there would have to be a great amount of force on the barrel to shoot a foot high at 25yds.

-Steve