Rifles that have changed history
- Thread starter romper stomper
- Start date
- Status
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------
And the reason for the political action? Largely little skinny guys in black PJs running around with AK-47s, who refused to fight like a real army and who refused to give up.
----------------------------------------------
No, the reason for the political action was self-serving people in the United States who made political hay out of opposition to the war.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Laos, even when we could see lights on the Ko Rach, as they prepared to attack us.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in the Demilitarized Zone -- and my successor as commander of A Co, 1st Bn, 61st Infantry was killed by a mortar shell fired from inside the DMZ.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Cambodia.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Vinh, the nexus of his supply system.
And, by the way, South Vietnam did NOT fall to a guerilla army. The Guerillas were mostly destroyed in the fighting that followed Tet of '68 -- after that, I was taking prisoners and killing people who were supposedly VC, and members of VC regiments -- but to a man-jack had NVA Geneva Convention cards!
South Vietnam fell to a conventional cross-border attack, with tanks, aircraft and all the trimmings.
-----------------------------------------------
And the reason for the political action? Largely little skinny guys in black PJs running around with AK-47s, who refused to fight like a real army and who refused to give up.
----------------------------------------------
No, the reason for the political action was self-serving people in the United States who made political hay out of opposition to the war.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Laos, even when we could see lights on the Ko Rach, as they prepared to attack us.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in the Demilitarized Zone -- and my successor as commander of A Co, 1st Bn, 61st Infantry was killed by a mortar shell fired from inside the DMZ.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Cambodia.
It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Vinh, the nexus of his supply system.
And, by the way, South Vietnam did NOT fall to a guerilla army. The Guerillas were mostly destroyed in the fighting that followed Tet of '68 -- after that, I was taking prisoners and killing people who were supposedly VC, and members of VC regiments -- but to a man-jack had NVA Geneva Convention cards!
South Vietnam fell to a conventional cross-border attack, with tanks, aircraft and all the trimmings.
Mike Irwin
Member
"No, the reason for the political action was self-serving people in the United States who made political hay out of opposition to the war."
Which started happening after about 1966, when the promises of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations (contrary to popular belief, prior to that time, US involvement in Vietnam was felt to be a good thing among the general public) began to dissolve with ever increasing troop allotments to Vietnam and increasing numbers of body bags coming back.
And who was sending those body bags back? The black PJ clad skinny guys with AK-47s.
It was the inability of the of American and ARVN forces to fully suppress the Vietcong in the South that allowed those political forces to build, not vice versa.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Laos, even when we could see lights on the Ko Rach, as they prepared to attack us."
As they prepared to attack us with AK-47s.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in the Demilitarized Zone -- and my successor as commander of A Co, 1st Bn, 61st Infantry was killed by a mortar shell fired from inside the DMZ."
Lobbed by a mortar crew likely armed with AK-47s.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Cambodia."
Those NVA... you get the idea.
What you're failing to see, or ignoring altogether, are the differences I pointed out, that the AK-47 was perhaps more a weapon of international politics and firepower diplomacy than anything else, and in that role, just as did the Brown Bess, it played, and continues to play, a huge role worldwide.
I'm also detecting a faint whiff of homerism in this thread, where if it's Commie it's CRAP, but if it's good old Capitalist steel, worship it, boys, it's close to a god.
Which started happening after about 1966, when the promises of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations (contrary to popular belief, prior to that time, US involvement in Vietnam was felt to be a good thing among the general public) began to dissolve with ever increasing troop allotments to Vietnam and increasing numbers of body bags coming back.
And who was sending those body bags back? The black PJ clad skinny guys with AK-47s.
It was the inability of the of American and ARVN forces to fully suppress the Vietcong in the South that allowed those political forces to build, not vice versa.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Laos, even when we could see lights on the Ko Rach, as they prepared to attack us."
As they prepared to attack us with AK-47s.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in the Demilitarized Zone -- and my successor as commander of A Co, 1st Bn, 61st Infantry was killed by a mortar shell fired from inside the DMZ."
Lobbed by a mortar crew likely armed with AK-47s.
"It wasn't AK 47s that decided we couldn't go after the NVA in Cambodia."
Those NVA... you get the idea.
What you're failing to see, or ignoring altogether, are the differences I pointed out, that the AK-47 was perhaps more a weapon of international politics and firepower diplomacy than anything else, and in that role, just as did the Brown Bess, it played, and continues to play, a huge role worldwide.
I'm also detecting a faint whiff of homerism in this thread, where if it's Commie it's CRAP, but if it's good old Capitalist steel, worship it, boys, it's close to a god.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
----------------------------------------------
What you're failing to see, or ignoring altogether, are the differences I pointed out, that the AK-47 was perhaps more a weapon of international politics and firepower diplomacy than anything else,
-------------------------------------------------
No, it wasn't -- it was political unrest in the United States. And body bags had little to do with it -- the anti-war movement LIKED it when more Americans were killed.
It didn't matter what weapon the NVA used -- all that mattered was that people could make hay out of oppsition to the war.
----------------------------------------------
What you're failing to see, or ignoring altogether, are the differences I pointed out, that the AK-47 was perhaps more a weapon of international politics and firepower diplomacy than anything else,
-------------------------------------------------
No, it wasn't -- it was political unrest in the United States. And body bags had little to do with it -- the anti-war movement LIKED it when more Americans were killed.
It didn't matter what weapon the NVA used -- all that mattered was that people could make hay out of oppsition to the war.
SMLE
Member
I think the idea of the original post was about changing history in the general sense, rather than specific moments in history. My list would be:
Flintlock musket with socket bayonet. The first long arm that truly made the pike un-necessary if not obsolete.
The rifle musket and Minié bullet. Solved the issue of speed vs. accuracy that kept rifles from becoming standard issue to entire armies.
The bolt action, either Mauser or Lee, both made repeating arms "practical" to the old school Generals of the time. The lever guns just never did that on the same scale.
The 1889 Lebel and its cartridge. The development of nitro-cellulose based propellants made the small caliber, high velocity bullet a reality. The 30-40, .303, 7x57mm, 8x57mm and 30-06 all grew from that idea.
The M1 Garand. Of all the first generation self loading rifles of the 30s, it is really the 600 pound gorilla. Other rifles may have come before it, but none of its predecessors saw anywhere near the universal service or service life of the M1.
The Kalashnikov. While the StG 44 may have inspired its concept, it was the AK that really made good on the idea and proved it to the rest of the world.
Flintlock musket with socket bayonet. The first long arm that truly made the pike un-necessary if not obsolete.
The rifle musket and Minié bullet. Solved the issue of speed vs. accuracy that kept rifles from becoming standard issue to entire armies.
The bolt action, either Mauser or Lee, both made repeating arms "practical" to the old school Generals of the time. The lever guns just never did that on the same scale.
The 1889 Lebel and its cartridge. The development of nitro-cellulose based propellants made the small caliber, high velocity bullet a reality. The 30-40, .303, 7x57mm, 8x57mm and 30-06 all grew from that idea.
The M1 Garand. Of all the first generation self loading rifles of the 30s, it is really the 600 pound gorilla. Other rifles may have come before it, but none of its predecessors saw anywhere near the universal service or service life of the M1.
The Kalashnikov. While the StG 44 may have inspired its concept, it was the AK that really made good on the idea and proved it to the rest of the world.
fallingblock
Member
Mike Irwin......
Please allow me to make a distinction which concerns a subject near and dear to me:
************************************************************
"The Martini-Henry really isn't a lever action rifle. It's a falling-block, actuated by a lever."
************************************************************
Right on about the "lever action" part.
But....
The Martini is a "hinged" or "pivoting" block,
not a "falling" block.
Australia is well-supplied with Martinis and my passion is for the true 'falling' block...as you might have guessed.
Please allow me to make a distinction which concerns a subject near and dear to me:
************************************************************
"The Martini-Henry really isn't a lever action rifle. It's a falling-block, actuated by a lever."
************************************************************
Right on about the "lever action" part.
But....
The Martini is a "hinged" or "pivoting" block,
not a "falling" block.
Australia is well-supplied with Martinis and my passion is for the true 'falling' block...as you might have guessed.
Crownvicman
Member
Regarding the Martini-Henry: But doesn't the action required to actuate that falling or tilting block use a lever? That makes it a lever action, just not a lever action repeater. I have seen a lever action Spencer repeater converted into a single shot hunting rifle. Is it no longer a lever action? The action is still worked by a lever.
Any action worked by a lever is a lever action.
As to changing history my list goes like this:
The French Minie Rifle- First rapid fire military rifle adopted by most powers.
The Prussian Needle-Gun- Single shot, breech loading bolt action rifle adopted in the 1840's. Helped Establish Prussia as a European Power and after the Franco-Prussian War helped unify Germany.
The Sharps Rifle- Helped establish the concept of breech loading world wide as practical. Used in China, the Indian Mutiny and the American Civil War. Helped remove the buffalo herds from the Great Plains.
The Martini-Henry Rifle- Used in Britian's colonial wars of the late 19th century. Helped strengthen the British Empire.
The Winchester Lever-Action Rifles- Henry or 1860, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1894 and 1895. The early Henry had influence in making repeating rifles desirable. The use of model 1866 Winchesters by the Turks against the Russians convinced most European Nations that they needed a repeating rifle of some kind. The 1866 and 1873 were the weapons of the Indian Wars. The 1873, 1892 and the 1894 were heavily used in the Mexican revolution. The 1895 was used by the Russian Army in WW1.
The Mauser Bolt-Action Rifle- Most Nations of the world have used a Mauser rifle in it's various forms or a variation of it at sometime or another. The World Wars were fought with Mausers on both sides. Mauser rifles still turn up almost anywhere there is a conflict.
The M1 Garand- The rifle that helped win WWII and proved a self-loading rifle can be reliable.
The AK-47- The rifle of Communist Revolution, Third World Terrorists and Islamic Revolutionaries. This one will be around for a long time.
Any action worked by a lever is a lever action.
As to changing history my list goes like this:
The French Minie Rifle- First rapid fire military rifle adopted by most powers.
The Prussian Needle-Gun- Single shot, breech loading bolt action rifle adopted in the 1840's. Helped Establish Prussia as a European Power and after the Franco-Prussian War helped unify Germany.
The Sharps Rifle- Helped establish the concept of breech loading world wide as practical. Used in China, the Indian Mutiny and the American Civil War. Helped remove the buffalo herds from the Great Plains.
The Martini-Henry Rifle- Used in Britian's colonial wars of the late 19th century. Helped strengthen the British Empire.
The Winchester Lever-Action Rifles- Henry or 1860, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1894 and 1895. The early Henry had influence in making repeating rifles desirable. The use of model 1866 Winchesters by the Turks against the Russians convinced most European Nations that they needed a repeating rifle of some kind. The 1866 and 1873 were the weapons of the Indian Wars. The 1873, 1892 and the 1894 were heavily used in the Mexican revolution. The 1895 was used by the Russian Army in WW1.
The Mauser Bolt-Action Rifle- Most Nations of the world have used a Mauser rifle in it's various forms or a variation of it at sometime or another. The World Wars were fought with Mausers on both sides. Mauser rifles still turn up almost anywhere there is a conflict.
The M1 Garand- The rifle that helped win WWII and proved a self-loading rifle can be reliable.
The AK-47- The rifle of Communist Revolution, Third World Terrorists and Islamic Revolutionaries. This one will be around for a long time.
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Member
Falling block, you're right, thanks for the correction.
Crownvic,
I think we've really got a case of designs that can span several "traditional" class definitions.
If you really get down to it, though, a bolt action rifle could be considered a lever-action rifle, too, if you go by the standard definition of lever.
Crownvic,
I think we've really got a case of designs that can span several "traditional" class definitions.
If you really get down to it, though, a bolt action rifle could be considered a lever-action rifle, too, if you go by the standard definition of lever.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked