Hmmm. That's what I said earlier in this thread and then was told that it was untrue and didn't make any sense.
Right handed rifle, left eye dominant
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Hmmm. That's what I said earlier in this thread and then was told that it was untrue and didn't make any sense.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No, you said eye dominance was "mental."
I've stated that it can sometimes be changed.
I don't personally believe it is usually worth fighting the various factors which cause one eye to be dominant (most especially with young or inexperienced shooters who can choose which way to learn), but if the shift is actually a mild one it may work well enough for someone to achieve their goals.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I,(as someone who shoots left handed, is mixed dominant, and has shot everything from AUG's to Hawken rifles) don't understand how right handed shooting should be of such benefit that people are willing to expend a tremendous effort to use it.
If it can be changed it is mental. Your brain is just deciding on which eye it likes to use. Same with using your right or left hand. It's not like you can't physically use the other one, your brain has just gotten use to doing things one way.
The choice again comes back to would you rather favor your dominant eye or your dominant hand. I choose dominant hand since that is what most guns are built for. You obviously feel the opposite.
i think i understand what you are saying, and why its causing some confusion.
you are using the term 'mental' to describe the physical neurological wiring of the brain.....which is the right understanding of eye dominance, but not really the right choice of word.
where as most people when referring to 'mental' attribute it to a psychological cause. which has no effect on eye dominance.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, which is one of the factors contributing to eye dominance.
Do you have any links or references to medical research on eye dominance? I've tried looking and haven't found anything better than wikipedia. Sorry if my terminology is wrong, I'm a physicist not a physician.
Muzzlelover
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wow! I didn't think there was this many left-eyed right-handed dominent people!I thought me and my buddy were the only ones!I have tried and tried and tried to learn to shoot right handed but I can't.my shotguns and 22lr's and my 7 mag are right handed and I can shoot them all fine left handed although i do need a cheekpad for my 7 mag to make it more comfortable.
JFtheGR8
Member
Andrew Wyatt said:
I don't think slightly squinting my left eye is a "tremendous effort" but whatever. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
GBExpat
Member
As I mentioned in a prior post, I am RH/LED and have been shooting rifles with my right eye since I was ~6-7 years old.
Until my presbyopia started to get worse, I was an excellent rifle shot over irons (my favorite). For me to try to switch after all of these years would require a "tremendous effort" ... and I seriously doubt that the result would be either satisfactory or comfortable for me.
As they say, if it ain't broke ...
Perhaps for some of the youngsters, in certain circumstances, that might be a reasonable thing to try, though.
Until my presbyopia started to get worse, I was an excellent rifle shot over irons (my favorite). For me to try to switch after all of these years would require a "tremendous effort" ... and I seriously doubt that the result would be either satisfactory or comfortable for me.
As they say, if it ain't broke ...
Perhaps for some of the youngsters, in certain circumstances, that might be a reasonable thing to try, though.
lefteyedom
Member
Not shooting off the left dominate eye is a simple matter of proper form sub-coming to pier pressure.
Most people are not crossed dominated and most humans are right dominate.
If left handed weapons had been readily available at the same price as right hand ones eye dominance would never have been an issue.
Savage and Remington were for the longest time to only "affordable" left rifles, though their selection of calibers and models are still limited .
Culture loves conformity, I remember well classmates being forced to write with their right hand when they were clearly left handed.(in the early 70s) Did they "learn" to write RH? yes, but poorly and with needless extra effort. (my left handed mother suffered such treatment in the late 1940s)
As wounded people have demonstrated the human brain can overcome major insult given time and effort.
That fact has nothing to do with what shooting form a left eye dominate shooter will mostly likely be successful with.
In a stressful shooting situation the brain is having to process a large amount of information. Fighting a natural tendency is simple adding a needless burden.
One of the reason to shoot off the dominate eye is so that the shooter can keep both eyes open. Depth perception requires two eyes open at the same time. The shooter's situation awareness is likely to be better with both eyes open. Lastly with both eyes open the target will appear brighter than when seen with only a single eye.
Shooting off the dominate eye side, unless there is a physical handicap that prevents it, will provide the greatest chance of success.
Most people are not crossed dominated and most humans are right dominate.
If left handed weapons had been readily available at the same price as right hand ones eye dominance would never have been an issue.
Savage and Remington were for the longest time to only "affordable" left rifles, though their selection of calibers and models are still limited .
Culture loves conformity, I remember well classmates being forced to write with their right hand when they were clearly left handed.(in the early 70s) Did they "learn" to write RH? yes, but poorly and with needless extra effort. (my left handed mother suffered such treatment in the late 1940s)
As wounded people have demonstrated the human brain can overcome major insult given time and effort.
That fact has nothing to do with what shooting form a left eye dominate shooter will mostly likely be successful with.
In a stressful shooting situation the brain is having to process a large amount of information. Fighting a natural tendency is simple adding a needless burden.
One of the reason to shoot off the dominate eye is so that the shooter can keep both eyes open. Depth perception requires two eyes open at the same time. The shooter's situation awareness is likely to be better with both eyes open. Lastly with both eyes open the target will appear brighter than when seen with only a single eye.
Shooting off the dominate eye side, unless there is a physical handicap that prevents it, will provide the greatest chance of success.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I just happen to be in that group of left eye dominate and right handed. I shoot a rifle left handed and always have. While I have been through a few left handed bolt guns and still have a left handed Ruger 77 it really matters not. It just becomes an automatic function I never give any thought to at all. The brain just adapts and things just become automatic. For me placing a rifle in my right shoulder actually does require some thought.
People who work at juggling for example tennis balls don't give a thought to the process. Following initial practice the motions just become automatic, the brain knows what to do and does it.
Ron
People who work at juggling for example tennis balls don't give a thought to the process. Following initial practice the motions just become automatic, the brain knows what to do and does it.
Ron
Sun Tzu warrior
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Found this article some time ago concerning cross eye dominant shooting, I think it is mostly relevent to hand gun shooting, however, statistics are mentioned, and may be useful in this discussion.
The cross-dominant eyes: corrections are easy.
Sally Bartoo is an enthusiastic bull's-eye shooter and firearms instructor, who happens to be cross-dominant. That is, she is right handed but her master eye is her left one. She learned to shoot left-handed and has won many awards at Camp Perry on down. After she trained with me, she shoots dominant hand for CCW and IDPA.
She still has a strong interest in the topic, though, and recently forwarded some interesting material. A study of 5,546 subjects from 40 years ago determined almost a third were "cross-dom." 28.6 percent had left eye and right hand preference, while 3.9 percent had right eye and left hand preference. The citation was "Rengstorff, 1967." The same study found 91.5 percent of those surveyed were right-handed, 7.7 percent southpaws, and 1.1 percent ambidextrous________________________________________.
Having been teaching the handgun for some 35 years, I'd have to say those figures from four decades ago sound about right. No mention was made in the posting of gender or racial breakdown, but I've noticed more African-Americans than Caucasians are cross-dominant, far more females than males are cross-dominant and half or somewhat more than half of black females I've encountered are too.
Switching to the non-dominant hand is an old tradition. You see it more among lefties, because they're used to living in a right-handed world and because so many of the guns and holsters are readily available in "righty format only." The fact is, though, technique can be easily altered to correct this problem.
One-Hand Shooting
The turning of the head on the axis of the neck to bring left eye in line with extended right hand, or vice versa, is awkward. The first to recognize this and correct it was Bill McMillan, shooting for the US Marine Corps team in the late 1950s. McMillan figured out if he simply canted the pistol somewhere from 15 to 45 degrees inboard, adjusting the sights to compensate where necessary, the iron sights of the pistol in his right hand aligned perfectly with his left eye. In 1960 he went Gold for his country and his team in international competition, and the technique was proven.
One of his contemporaries, on the practical pistol side, was Ray Chapman, who would become the first world champion of the combat handgun. Ray wasn't cross-dominant, but he found a 15 to 45 degree cant of the pistol put the skeleto-muscular support structure of the human arm into a more propitious alignment and strengthened the hand. He recommended it even for same eye/hand dominant shooters, and it is taught today as technique of choice for one-handed self-defense shooting at the Chapman Academy Ray founded and at Thunder Ranch.
It is less popular today with cross-dominant bull's-eye shooters, because the game has gone to red dot sights for the most part, which are higher over the bore axis than iron sights and require significantly more adjustment to compensate for the changed angle between line of sight and line of bore.
Two-Hand Shooting
The Nichols Technique is simply applying the 15 to 45 degree inboard tilt of the handgun toward the opposite eye, while holding the firearm in both hands. It was popularized by Larry Nichols, the famously practical and innovative rangemaster of the Burbank, California, PD.
In cross-dominant use of the classic Weaver Stance, drop your head sideways toward your gun arm's shoulder. Jack Weaver's stance, with the body bladed somewhat and both elbows bent, brings the gun strongly toward the dominant eye side, and you need this much head movement to correct. It will bring your left eye in line with gun in right hand or vice versa, but the dropping of the head buries the danger scan more than I like. The non-dominant eye has a great view of your own gun arm but a poor view of the danger scene.
The Chapman Stance, the most popular and probably the most efficient of the many "modified Weaver stances," is much easier to correct for cross-dominance. In Ray's stance, the gun arm is locked straight out, and the bent forward arm pulls in tight. This squares the chest a little more, and the gun isn't so much over on the strong side. Indexing the chin to the bicep of the shooting arm perfectly aligns the opposite eye with the gun arm in the Chapman stance, and keeps the head erect. You don't lose any danger scan, you just move the field of vision a few degrees to one side.
The Isosceles Stance squares the front of the torso to the target or threat, and both arms are locked straight out, forming an Isosceles triangle vis-a-vis the trunk of the body. This is the most adaptable stance for the cross-dominant shooter, in my experience. The gun and its sights end up at body center anyway, and it's no harder for the left eye to find the sights than the right eye.
Easier For Handgunners
Correction for cross-dominance is much more difficult for the rifle or shotgun, and there, I actually do recommend the right-handed gunner shoot from the left shoulder if left eye dominant. However, such "mirror image shooting" is also much easier with long guns than with handguns, which are much more dependent on hand dexterity and therefore almost cry out for the dominant hand to take the master grip upon them.
Give the above techniques a try. Even if you're not cross-dominant, someone you know is ... and you will be, if you ever have to shoot weak handed. Finally, don't worry, you're in good company. Such great modern champions as Dave Sevigny and Tom Yost are cross-dominant, and it hasn't kept them out of the winner's circle.
BY THE NUMBERS
28.6 percent: The number of people determined to be right-handed but left-eye dominant.
3.9 percent: The number of people determined to be left-handed but right-eye dominant.
91.5 percent: The number of people determined to be right-handed.
7.7 percent: The number of people determined to be left-handed.
1.1 percent: The number of people determined to be ambidextrous, who probably don t need to read Ayoob's column this month.
The cross-dominant eyes: corrections are easy.
Sally Bartoo is an enthusiastic bull's-eye shooter and firearms instructor, who happens to be cross-dominant. That is, she is right handed but her master eye is her left one. She learned to shoot left-handed and has won many awards at Camp Perry on down. After she trained with me, she shoots dominant hand for CCW and IDPA.
She still has a strong interest in the topic, though, and recently forwarded some interesting material. A study of 5,546 subjects from 40 years ago determined almost a third were "cross-dom." 28.6 percent had left eye and right hand preference, while 3.9 percent had right eye and left hand preference. The citation was "Rengstorff, 1967." The same study found 91.5 percent of those surveyed were right-handed, 7.7 percent southpaws, and 1.1 percent ambidextrous________________________________________.
Having been teaching the handgun for some 35 years, I'd have to say those figures from four decades ago sound about right. No mention was made in the posting of gender or racial breakdown, but I've noticed more African-Americans than Caucasians are cross-dominant, far more females than males are cross-dominant and half or somewhat more than half of black females I've encountered are too.
Switching to the non-dominant hand is an old tradition. You see it more among lefties, because they're used to living in a right-handed world and because so many of the guns and holsters are readily available in "righty format only." The fact is, though, technique can be easily altered to correct this problem.
One-Hand Shooting
The turning of the head on the axis of the neck to bring left eye in line with extended right hand, or vice versa, is awkward. The first to recognize this and correct it was Bill McMillan, shooting for the US Marine Corps team in the late 1950s. McMillan figured out if he simply canted the pistol somewhere from 15 to 45 degrees inboard, adjusting the sights to compensate where necessary, the iron sights of the pistol in his right hand aligned perfectly with his left eye. In 1960 he went Gold for his country and his team in international competition, and the technique was proven.
One of his contemporaries, on the practical pistol side, was Ray Chapman, who would become the first world champion of the combat handgun. Ray wasn't cross-dominant, but he found a 15 to 45 degree cant of the pistol put the skeleto-muscular support structure of the human arm into a more propitious alignment and strengthened the hand. He recommended it even for same eye/hand dominant shooters, and it is taught today as technique of choice for one-handed self-defense shooting at the Chapman Academy Ray founded and at Thunder Ranch.
It is less popular today with cross-dominant bull's-eye shooters, because the game has gone to red dot sights for the most part, which are higher over the bore axis than iron sights and require significantly more adjustment to compensate for the changed angle between line of sight and line of bore.
Two-Hand Shooting
The Nichols Technique is simply applying the 15 to 45 degree inboard tilt of the handgun toward the opposite eye, while holding the firearm in both hands. It was popularized by Larry Nichols, the famously practical and innovative rangemaster of the Burbank, California, PD.
In cross-dominant use of the classic Weaver Stance, drop your head sideways toward your gun arm's shoulder. Jack Weaver's stance, with the body bladed somewhat and both elbows bent, brings the gun strongly toward the dominant eye side, and you need this much head movement to correct. It will bring your left eye in line with gun in right hand or vice versa, but the dropping of the head buries the danger scan more than I like. The non-dominant eye has a great view of your own gun arm but a poor view of the danger scene.
The Chapman Stance, the most popular and probably the most efficient of the many "modified Weaver stances," is much easier to correct for cross-dominance. In Ray's stance, the gun arm is locked straight out, and the bent forward arm pulls in tight. This squares the chest a little more, and the gun isn't so much over on the strong side. Indexing the chin to the bicep of the shooting arm perfectly aligns the opposite eye with the gun arm in the Chapman stance, and keeps the head erect. You don't lose any danger scan, you just move the field of vision a few degrees to one side.
The Isosceles Stance squares the front of the torso to the target or threat, and both arms are locked straight out, forming an Isosceles triangle vis-a-vis the trunk of the body. This is the most adaptable stance for the cross-dominant shooter, in my experience. The gun and its sights end up at body center anyway, and it's no harder for the left eye to find the sights than the right eye.
Easier For Handgunners
Correction for cross-dominance is much more difficult for the rifle or shotgun, and there, I actually do recommend the right-handed gunner shoot from the left shoulder if left eye dominant. However, such "mirror image shooting" is also much easier with long guns than with handguns, which are much more dependent on hand dexterity and therefore almost cry out for the dominant hand to take the master grip upon them.
Give the above techniques a try. Even if you're not cross-dominant, someone you know is ... and you will be, if you ever have to shoot weak handed. Finally, don't worry, you're in good company. Such great modern champions as Dave Sevigny and Tom Yost are cross-dominant, and it hasn't kept them out of the winner's circle.
BY THE NUMBERS
28.6 percent: The number of people determined to be right-handed but left-eye dominant.
3.9 percent: The number of people determined to be left-handed but right-eye dominant.
91.5 percent: The number of people determined to be right-handed.
7.7 percent: The number of people determined to be left-handed.
1.1 percent: The number of people determined to be ambidextrous, who probably don t need to read Ayoob's column this month.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I've used the techniques posted for the weaver stance when i was shooting pistols right handed, and they're not as good as just shooting left handed.
A lot of the reason for shooting right handed in the past doesn't exist any more.
Every modern handgun , and every semi-auto rifle with the exception of the bullpups has their controls mounted where a lefty can reach them, and the brass won't eject into their face.
A lot of the reason for shooting right handed in the past doesn't exist any more.
Every modern handgun , and every semi-auto rifle with the exception of the bullpups has their controls mounted where a lefty can reach them, and the brass won't eject into their face.
Sheepdog1968
Member
There is certainly some truth to this and I'd rather have the internet than not.
However, what I seem to see in a lot of internet discussion is an obsession over details and minutae rather than the big picture plus you never know the reliablity of the source of info you are reading. There is too much information and choice (book called Paradox of Choice does a great job of explaining what does to us in general). I think many folks would be better served by going to a local range or taking some classes for good instructors and learning that way.
I can't help but wonder if all the potential questions about caliber, make and model, sights, scopes, red dots, etc overwhelms folks to the point where they just toss up their hands and don't buy something and don't shoot.
MCgunner
Member
I would think eye dominance could NOT change if the problem were severe enough as it is with me. I've TRIED to shoot right handed, but it's hard to do when you just can't see sights OR target other than a blur. Don't bother trying to tell me I'm nuts. I'm 60 years old and switched shoulders over 50 years ago. I no longer even feel right holding a long gun on my right shoulder.
I can actually see much better out of my left eye uncorrected (20-50) than I can my right eye corrected (20-70). My right eye uncorrected is 20-90. It is so much easier to just switch shoulders. There's no shame in it, it worked for me! What's the big deal? I bet I can reload a right handed bolt gun shooting left handed pretty close to as fast as anyone here an do it right handed. I've been doing it a long, long time. But, normally, only takes me one shot.
I can actually see much better out of my left eye uncorrected (20-50) than I can my right eye corrected (20-70). My right eye uncorrected is 20-90. It is so much easier to just switch shoulders. There's no shame in it, it worked for me! What's the big deal? I bet I can reload a right handed bolt gun shooting left handed pretty close to as fast as anyone here an do it right handed. I've been doing it a long, long time. But, normally, only takes me one shot.
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Elkins45
Member
Never figured it out. Maybe brass fatigue or just a flaw that took awhile to reveal itself. I doubt I'll ever really know. Pictures here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7652377#post7652377
Yes, I wear prescription glasses.
This thread seems to have morphed into one about dominant eye and handedness, with people advocating to retrain yourself to use your non-dominent eye. Hmmm...I can spend countless hours to train myself to overcome a very basic physiological characteristic, or I can spend $30 extra and buy a rifle that is manufactured to adapt itself to how my eyes/body work. And it provides me with an extra measure of safety as well.
That's not a tough decision.
rodregier
Member
I'm cross dominant. (Right hand dominant, left eye dominant). I use right-handed rifles, sight with my RH eye, close my left.
When I shoot iron-sighted pistols, I sight with my LH eye and close my right.
When I shoot iron-sighted pistols, I sight with my LH eye and close my right.
MTMilitiaman
Member
I started out with a right handed M700ADL in .270 Win when I was like 14 years old. Before that I used a Mini-14. I figured out how to work the bolt alright. The problem was cheek weld. I replaced that rifle with a left handed M700BDL in 7mm Rem Mag. I'll never go back. All my bolt rifles from here on out have to be left handed. I don't have a problem with most semi autos. Some semi autos are actually better for us. Like the AK or M14/M1A. The charging handle on the M16/AR is equally awkward for everyone. Pump action shotguns are fine. So are lever action rifles. Honestly not having the right comb height on that right handed bolt rifle was the only real problem I've had being right handed and left eye dominanent since I started shooting left handed back with the Mini-14 when I was like ten or eleven.
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