Rimfire Wildcats?

[cstarr3]

Hi All!

For starters, I don't really have the required experience to do any wildcatting, so this is kind of an academic question. But I know rimfire wildcats exist, out there in the aether, as I have found posts about them (and we can believe everything we read on the internet). What are the main differences between wildcatting centerfire and rimfire? Can you run a rimfire through a die in a press without serious concerns of detonation? Could you run a .17 WSM through a 5.7mm FN die to expand the mouth, and then use the 5.7mm FN seat/crimp die to make a complete round? Can you substitute pistol/shotgun powders like Long Shot for the rimfire powders that are usually used?

The main reason I ask is because in many threads concerning the .17 WSM and the Savage B Mag, there is mention of how there should be a necked up .22 version of the round/gun. With a 40 grain bullet, the performance should be about what a 5.7mm FN is, right? At least on par with the watered-down 5.7mm that we get in the States? Even if not on the same level of performance, a ".22 WSM" would be at least cheaper than 5.7mm FN. Could you see a future for a strait walled, heeled .27 caliber magnum round (in something like a larger Savage A22, Kel-Tec PMR 30, or an NAA pocket revolver)? Because the .17 WSM is based on the .27 caliber nail gun charge, do you think there is room for .25 caliber nail gun charge based cartridges?

Thanks all for your contributions.

 

[gotboostvr]

It's an interesting idea.
You won't get 5.7x28 velocities though. You have less case capacity in weaker brass.

 

[R.W.Dale]

It's an interesting idea.
You won't get 5.7x28 velocities though. You have less case capacity in weaker brass.

Are you certain the capacity is less?

The 17 super mag is based on the .270 rimfire power load case

 

[cstarr3]

Are you certain the capacity is less?

The 17 super mag is based on the .270 rimfire power load case

According to something I found on realguns.com, the .17 WSM has a capacity of 12.7 grains. According to Wikipedia and Elite Ammunition's page, the 5.7 FN has a case capacity of either 13.9 or 12.1 grains H2O. So I am not sure if the FN has greater capacity.

The FN case has a base diameter of .311" (Wikipedia says so, and my measurements confirm this). The width of the the .27 nail gun charge is about .269". The case length on the FN is 28.8-28.9mm = 1.134"-1.138", but is 1.200" on the Winchester (=30.48mm). However, the primer pocket takes up a lot of space on the FN cartridge. In any case, the rounds are comparable in size, so I would think that performance could be similar, depending on how thick the .17 WSM brass is. I know that some of the nail gun charges are quite powerful, and have brass that is thicker and stronger than the average rimfire firearms cartridge.

Because the 5.7mm is not recomended for reloading (though it is possible), I would think that a non-reloadable rimfire cartridge might be competitive with the FN cartridge in similar small carbines and the like due to the cheaper production of rimfire cartridges. Also, I would think that a .22 LR-length .27 rimfire would probably be far more effective than the crummy .25 ACP guns on the market.

I am thinking that the .17 could open up a whole new perspective on rimfire cartridges in the varmint and super-small carry gun categories. However, it would be a moot point if wildcatting rimfire is significantly harder and more dangerous than centerfire.

 

[rcmodel]

and have brass that is thicker and stronger than the average rimfire firearms cartridge.

And there lies the problem.

The rim is so much thicker & stronger that Savage had to design a new action with a much stronger firing pin spring just for it.

It is doubtful you could get enough firing pin energy to fire one in a super-small handgun.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

One word: Kricotronic!

 

[cstarr3]

And there lies the problem.

The rim is so much thicker & stronger that Savage had to design a new action with a much stronger firing pin spring just for it.

It is doubtful you could get enough firing pin energy to fire one in a super-small handgun.

rc

I see what you mean. What about the small single action revolvers made by NAA? They seem to have pretty strong hammers. Would a .27 Magnum version of, say, the Black Widow be small enough to be a wallet gun, but still hit the rim hard enough to set off the primer?

I also realized that there might be some issues with recoil. I noticed that most .22 LR semi autos are straight blowback, like .380s, .32s, and .25s. But something like the A22 has a little button that is designed to slow or delay the bolt travel (I don't know how the Kel-Tec PMR 30 operates, blowback or delayed recoil). Something with even more force or pressure, like a .27 Magnum or a ".22 WSM," might need some sort of locking mechanism, making it more fitting for bolt guns or short recoil pistols. Still, I see plenty of .22 LR and .17 HMR bolt guns spending only short amounts of time on the walls of my LSG before they are purchased. Considering both Savage and Ruger have .17 WSM rifles, the firing pin problem is no longer an issue on those models. A simple barrel swap should allow for the use of a .17 WSM-based caliber.

This brings me back to the idea of wildcatting for a rimfire. If I got my hands on a 77/17 or a B-Mag, and managed to bore the barrel out to .22 and ream the chamber anew, is it feasible for someone (with more reloading and wildcatting experience than I) to create a ".22 WSM?"

Heck, I might just end up buying a B-Mag in the future and using spent cases to experiment on to see if resizing the neck and seating a bullet with a 5.7 die set is doable. Even if I can't produce live ammo, it would be fun to know for sure. But since the B-Mag is far in the future for me, a definite answer is even further away.

Again, thanks for the input. Enlightening, as always.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have read of handloading rimfires, things like .22 WRM with Sierra Matchkings and black powder .22 LR.

But I have not heard of die forming to a different caliber.
Going to be a project, pulling down a donor round, reforming, then working up loads without being able to reload your fireformed brass.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't see any point in it.

The benifet of reloading, as far as costs go, is to reuse the most expensive component of the cartridge.

The fired brass case.

Since you can't really reuse fired rimfire cases, you would more then double the cost of reloading using unfired factory ammo for doner cases.

Plus, all you would end up with is a very expensive alternative to the .22 Hornet, or .218 Bee Centerfire which can be reloaded easily, or wildcatted to larger calibers until the brass wears clear out.

Historically, larger caliber rim fire cartridges were very much in use 100 years ago.

Perhaps one of the best small game loads ever was the .25 Stevens RF.
But it didn't sell well enough to keep it alive.

rc

 

[Scooter22]

Rimfire Wildcats?

Yeah Winchester made them. Pretty good plinking ammo if you find any. Oh, reloading rimfire? Waste of time imho. Pick a .22 Hornet or .223 and load light. Yes I do and have both.

 

[cstarr3]

I don't see any point in it.

The benifet of reloading, as far as costs go, is to reuse the most expensive component of the cartridge.

The fired brass case.

Since you can't really reuse fired rimfire cases, you would more then double the cost of reloading using unfired factory ammo for doner cases.

Plus, all you would end up with is a very expensive alternative to the .22 Hornet, or .218 Bee Centerfire which can be reloaded easily, or wildcatted to larger calibers until the brass wears clear out.

Yeah. Reloading rimfire would be a rough ride at best. I don't see much of a point in wildcatting the .17 WSM unless it eventually gets into production, where savings can be had at the ammo counter, not at the reloading bench. But people do a lot of stuff I think is pointless (case in point: dwarf tossing). But they still do it.

Now, for something like a 5.7 FN, that can be reloaded, but it is not recommended; that is a 1-use round for most people. And it is expensive. Assuming a ~$0.34 donor cartridge, ~$0.20 for the bullet, and, at most, $0.02 for powder, that is still about $26 for a box of 50. That is almost $5 per box cheaper than local 5.7 FN ammo.

Now, I do reload the 5.7, and it takes a lot of attention. But it also means that ammo cost doesn't phase me much. And it means that the only reason why I would ever wildcat a rimfire is just to say I did. But my skills right now are such that I would be more worried about losing a hand or an eye than losing a few bucks on a fruitless and pointless endeavor.

In any case, it might be fun if somebody did it. Maybe it would convince Savage or Ruger to standardize it. There are plenty of threads where people suggest that the .17 WSM might have been better as a .20 or .22 caliber. I was just thinking that if that was such a common sentiment, would we ever actually see a home-grown version? I am guessing from the replies that the answer is "almost definitely not."

 

[dbmjr1]

The folded base of a rim-fire cartridge is it's weak point. Can't handle pressures.