Rimfires for self defense

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I have found that people who stick with carrying handguns often start out with the big bore blasters but after becoming tired of putting up with the discomfort and hassle of trying to keep them concealed often either quit carrying them altogether or gravitate to the very small concealable handgun for everyday carry.

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After 7+ years of teaching Texas CHL courses, I'm inclined to be in agreement with much of that statement. During the first year or two of the program, the Beretta 92s, 1911s, Glocks, ect. were used in abundance for the "demonstration of proficiency."

But ... by the time renewals started coming due 2 and 4 years later, it was interesting to note the number of people who actually "carried" had gone out and purchased a Kahr, Kel-tec, snubbie, etc. ... :D

Statistically, only around 1% of the adult population here has the license. And my best guess from discussions with license holders in classes, is that roughly 50% of them only carry in their vehicles. So ... that leaves only maybe 1/2 of 1% who carry on their person. And, again, from discussions with in classes and around the range, about 50% of those are only "some of the time". Fortunately, of those who do carry .22s, it is usually only as a BUG.

IMHO, I'm inclined to think that we "die-hards" that often hang out at forums like this are. in reality, real EXCEPTIONS to "the norm" if indeed doing full-time packing of the 1911s and larger ...

But, on the primary topic of this thread, the load that I'm most comfortable with after testing several in Beretta 21A, is the relatively new CCI Velocitor. 40 grain Gold Dot bullet with (rifle) fps of 1400+. No malfunctions to date in 21A. Tho more testing pending when time, so far so good with Aquila 60 grain SSS (950 rifle fps). Gonna try loading the mag with every other one and see how it runs in rapid fire ... IIRC, last time, from low-ready, it took about 1.7 seconds to empty with 8 of 8 Velocitors in 9" picnic plate at 3 yards. Not exactly what I would care to be the "stopper" for ... ;)
 
I think a 9mm/45 is much better than a rim fire but when its pushing triple digit temps and I have to stay dressed for business I wont carry if its going to be uncomfortable. I dont see it as a major issue, I try to use the weapon between my ears first, stay aware and move away from any threat that should arise. Before I will even pull my firearm I will have run out of all other options and be cornered with a life threatning situation. Robbery aint enough, I dont carry over a C note on me, credit cards can be canceled, watch is a $300 Zeno and I'm not too impressed with my current pick up. My life and wedding ring are about all I am really concerned about.
Gerald
 
Yep, that article worth readin' for sure.

Circumstances here in the last few weeks are such that it appears new Kahr PM9 will replace Beretta 21A in BUG role.
Then maybe if Gaston's new super-duper proprietary 45 shakes out to be the dream machine asserted, then maybe another look. In the meantime, his Model 36 in ACP will still do for me ... It though is often perceived as too "bulky" and is relegated to "truck only" carry in favor of an ultra-light j-frame ...

As others have said, in some circumstances - like upcoming 100 degree days on and off a tractor - there is definitely a place for guns like the almost-forgettable NAA .22 rimfires. :)
 
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I disagree with the "famous" Clint Smith that a handgun should be comforting and not comfortable, surely a handgun should be comforting AND comfortable, what it should not be is an excessive compromise, i.e. so small that it is under-powered just so it is the MOST comfortable.

To suggest that the gentleman from Ohio is blowing hot air about his knowledge of other individual's CCW choices just because he happens to live in a restrictive state is a little presumptive. I live in Maryland but have knowledge of people's carry preferences in other states.

Newton
 
One thing we've overlooked is the poster's location. He's in South Africa and probably does not have legal access to other handguns and calibers.

FWIW, I'd test extensively with your TPH to determine reliability. That would be my first criteria, then look at penetration.
 
The rimfire isn't my primary weapon, the question was which cartridge would be the best! I don't doubt it that a .45 is better than a .22 etc etc....

And incidently, the only time I was shot was with a .22LR SV lead nose, and that was a OSS...
 
This makes me think of a post that WildAlaska put on a similar thread a while back, and it stuck with me. In response to snickers that he may get when people see his NAA 22 revolver...Most likely misquoted, but something along the lines of:

"Most people snicker, but when I offer to shoot them in the face with it, they always decline."

Many people have said it before, and I will reiterate..a 22 in tha face is better than a 45 in the wall behind them.

placement.
 
A good point - - -

arinvolvo, pertaining to the recurring "challenge."
Most likely misquoted, but something along the lines of:
"Most people snicker, but when I offer to shoot them in the face with it, they always decline."
Click to expand...

Be assured, this is not aimed at YOU, sir, but - - - -
It is about time to mention that it is contrary to THR policy to advocate illegal acts. We see people "calling out" each other, in effect offering to shoot anyone who disagrees with a caliber choice. Enough.

Such posts will begin disappearing with no public comment.

This deletion will further extend to posts which smirkingly boast of other illegal practices as well. It is one thing to tacitly hint about a little light-running civil disobedience. It is another to allow the casual visitor to THR to think that this is a hotbed of sedition and disobedience to enacted statutes.

By all means, espouse whatever firearm or caliber you wish. Indicate disfavor with existing laws, and work to change them. But, please, don't behave like irresponsible scofflaws on this board.

Thank you.
Johnny Guest
 
Based on my experience with .22, I would suggest something like Mini Mag +V or another 40-grain bullet with flat, wide meplat. I've seen .22 slugs stopped by a small stip of vynil, so penetration would be key.

The problem with .22 handguns is that they have two of three qualities but not all three:

either they are light and reliable (revolvers) but have a heavy trigger pull or they are less reliable but have a light pull and light weight (autoloaders).

If I had to carry a .22, it would have at least a 3" barrel. In revolvers, S&W317 kit gun would be good IF you can deal with heavy trigger pull (3" barrel, 8 shots), in autoloaders, Ruger mk2 wouldn't be bad provided it was kept clean, ammo was top-notch and rotated regularly. Practice fast reloads. Either way, it would be an unimpressive stopper. The main benefit would be cheap and easy practice and ability to shoot fast. I can fire ten .22s in the same time it takes me to fire 2-3 centerfire rounds, with same accuracy.

I've long been a fan of using a .22 and shooting fast but I've come to the conclusion that it is a sub-optimal solution at best.
 
I'm glad that Oleg and some others have started to get this thread back on topic. It seems that the gentleman was not asking if a .22 was up to snuff. He was asking what the best .22 would be. Also for a .22 it makes a lot of sense to stick to revolvers, as the reliability of rimfires is not always very good. With a revolver there is the advantage of just pulling the trigger again if the primer doesn't fire.

Jeff
 
Johnny...I realize the importance of keeping illegal actions and topics off this board...However, I dont think that OFFERING to shoot someone is illegal.

And I am sure that WildAlaska did not mean it in a menacing manner...but more in a tongue in cheek, food for thought sort of way.

I will never gripe about free speech on a board such as this, as I am aware that this board is private property, and not a democracy...I MAY however gripe about over-reaction to witty or obviously tongue in cheek commentary.

However, point has been taken.
 
I love all the ominous prognostications about the person who would carry a .22 for his/her primary defensive weapon...

Such as "Only a person with a death wish..."

Jesus, don't make me laugh, please.

I carried a .22 primarily for nearly 4 years.

Why?

Because I did.

Was I out playing in traffic at night wearing all black, so as to benefit my death wish?

Nope.

Was I lazy about my choice of self-defense weapons? Another chortle fest. If I were lazy about it, I wouldn't have carried it nearly 24x7.

Why DID I carry a .22?

Because the gun I chose, a Taurus PT-22, was, and remains, absolutely 100% flawlessly reliable after over 2,000 rounds of Winchester Wildcat.

And, as I've mentioned here before, several times, over the past 20 years I've had FAR more primer failures in FACTORY CENTERFIRE ammunition, from top of the line makers, than I have had rimfire ammo.

In under 2 seconds (that's timed) I can pull my Taurus PT-22 from a pocket holster and put 8 shots into the size of a fist at 6 feet.

Is the .22 the UBERBEST BAR NONE TOP PRIMO NUMBER ONE most effective personal protection device?

Nope.

But then again, neither is a .380, .357, .40, .45, etc.

When it comes right down to it, a handgun stinks as a personal protection device if you don't have the education, attitude, practice, mindset, and situational awareness that is mandatory for maintaining your health and well being.

And even if you DO have all that? The handgun is still a pretty crappy defensive weapon.

Far too many people seem to think just because they're carrying a gun in caliber XXX their **** doesn't stink. Unfortunately, they seldom think beyond the gun that they own, and if push truly came to shove, would be about as likely to end up as a statistic as ending up a hero.

In short, don't look down your noses at the person who, in your lordly opinion, seems to be underarmed.

He or she just may be able to teach you a thing or two about staying alive.

Oh, and for what it's worth?

A .22 will bounce off a human skull.

But then again so will a .45.

But a .22 at close range is also fully capable of penetrating both sides of a human skull.

Think about that.
 
I think you're missing the point of their objections to .22 as a defensive round. It's true that shot placement is very important, but once you've placed that shot you have got to be able to count on the ballistics of the bullets being reliably effective enough to cause rapid incapacitation. Simply put, the .45 does that better than the .22. Yeah, no handgun is a good manstopper, so why limit yourself further? You should carry as much as you reasonably can.

Did you read the link I provided? You really should, if you haven't yet.

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/45/45-advoc.htm

You should like it. The first line is, "the .45 ACP is not a very powerful cartridge."
 
Thanks for saying that Mike, it needed saying. I wish someone would explain why its their business what I carry, and why they know better whats right for me when the only thing they know about me is in these words. I dont carry all of the time and dont see much need to carry all the time, I dont get nervous when I cant carry, dont consider myself particularly lazy for carrying a small gun, dont ask their advice and dont want their advice.
Gerald
 
Mike, being a newcomer to bullet sizes and the power behind them my question is...why would the .22 pass entirely through the skull when the .45 wouldnt? Is it a velocity issue?

Just trying to learn all I can:D
 
"I think you're missing the point of their objections to .22 as a defensive round."

Let's see...

Generally the objections are, in relative order...

1. The .22s a pussy round, suitable only for exceptionally old wimmin and foo foo pansy boys! You a pansy boy? Are you? Huh?

2. There's a 22 trillion trillion trillion percent chance that a .22 will malfunction because it's a rimmed cartridge, or misfire because it's a rimfire cartridge.

3. Ya can't thump yer chest and hoot like a horny gibbon when you're carrying a .22! Need a .45 for that! WOOOOOOOOOO! WOOOOOOOOOOOO!

4. The .22 won't penetrate a folded over piece of tissue paper. How in the hell do you expect it to penetrate a human?

You get the idea.

Now, on to this...

"so why limit yourself further?"

Hey, you're carrying an 8 shot .45? What the hell are you thinking? What if you're surrounded by 14 of the roughest, toughest gang members who ever lived? Why aren't you carrying a 9mm with 15 rounds?

Why are you limiting yourself?

Or for that matter, why are you limiting yourself with a puny, sickly .45 ACP when you could be carrying a a .454 Casul, or better yet, a .50 Desert Eagle, a round with some REAL punch?

Are you that unconcerned and cavalier about your safety and security that you'd go out with such a wimpy, ineffectual round?

We've already heard that dress and climate are simply NO EXCUSE! when it comes to picking and carrying a defensive firearm?

So what's YOUR excuse? Huh? Why are you limiting yourself?

OK, you get the idea. Enough of the funny stuff.

The most salient point is obviously something that you've missed, Geech, but which other's have repeatedly tried to convey in many different ways.

The size of the gun isn't what makes the man dangerous.

The size of the man is what makes the gun dangerous.

If you're ever confronted by someone who's carrying one of these puny little mouse guns, it would pay to remember that.

As for your link?

Yep, I read it. I've been reading that sort of stuff for 30 years. I used to publish it, to.

Anyone who wants to speak definitively along these lines needs to remember this...

The size of the gun isn't what makes the man dangerous.

The size of the man is what makes the gun dangerous.
 
KpEng,

First of all, you have to absolutely abandon the idea that are absolutes when talking about firearms.

Among those absolutes are "The .45 is the best.... the .22 is the worst..."

Funny stuff like that.

Now, on to your question.

Is it possible for a .22 to penetrate completely through a human skull?

Yes. I've seen the results of it.

Is it likely, or certain, to do so? No. Most of the time a .22 shot to the skull will stay in the skull.

A .45 is also quite capable of fully penetrating a human skull. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I've seen some very interesting pictures of that, too.

The critical factors probably fall along the line of initial velocity, energy expended when penetrating the skull (which is extremely tough), angle at which the bullet strikes and penetrates and at which angle it strikes the back of the skull, etc.
 
"I wish someone would explain why its their business what I carry, and why they know better whats right for me when the only thing they know about me is in these words."

Hum...

Good question.

Probably the same reason that they thing we give a damn what they think? :evil:
 
Whatever, Irwin. When you're willing to discuss this seriously, I'll be here.
 
Like I said Mossad in 70's used to rid the world of terrorist vermin in various places by a few .22 Win Copperplated 40grainers out of issue Berretta Jaguars with threaded 6" barrels. These guns weighed about 20 oz. and have an open slide design like a Mod 92 but are single action with a cross bolt safety. They are very thin and conceal well.They are supposed to be extremely reliable,They had 2 extra 8 round mags and went for eye and ear holes at 15 feet or less. Nobody ever survived- nobody!:banghead:
 
You don't think I'm discussing this seriously, Geech? Just because I'm attempting to inject some humor into it?

Also, I've asked you the same thing you've asked me.

Why are you limiting yourself? There are more powerful options out there.

As others have stated, dress and climate are absolute no bar to picking a defensive handgun.

Yet, it would appear that the most pervasive argument that's handed out in this sort of situation essentially consists of "Me got 4 5! Me toughest hombre around!"

Essentially it's the theory that having a .45 imparts some sort of magical invincibility. Essentially, that's the theory that the gun makes the man, and not the other way around. Dangerous, dangerous way to think. One that can easily get you killed.

Quite frankly, I carry a handgun for one reason, and one reason alone.

It's to give me the opportunity to get out of Dodge, and if necessary, to cover my escape.

It's not to blow that evil thug bastard out of his socks.

I don't carry any wonderous, magical illusions about the ability of a handgun to stop a determined attacker.

I look at a handgun as essentially being about the same thing as a can of pepper spray.

It's a deterrent that will hopefully allow you to put distance between you and your assailant.

If you stick around to see how effective a stopper your handgun is, you're a bigger fool than the person who decided that you were target potential in the first place.
 
No offence, Irwin, but you need to develop some critical reading skills.

What were your major points? Why not carry more?

You should carry as much as you reasonably can.*
Click to expand...

What was another point? .45 not being magic?

Yeah, no handgun is a good manstopper*
Click to expand...

Seems like the rest of your posts were just filled with crap you injected into the discussion yourself. If you weren't so concerned with trying to look intelligent, you made have noticed what my post was really about. As it is, you haven't really addressed the substance of my argument yet. Like I said, if you want to discuss this seriously, I'll still be here.

*Both excerpts from my earlier post.
 
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