RIPOFF: S. Florida shooting ranges now allow you to shoot ONLY ammo you bought there!

[peacefuljeffrey]

Dude, don't give me the "liability" line. They're a shooting range. They're either well-covered, because they're in this particular business, or they're not. I really don't believe for a second that they are trying to shave exposure to catastrophe or liability here or there by nickel-and-diming every little thing.

And if their concern was about hand-loads, they could just BAN HAND-LOADS, and the same check they are doing of people's bags for outside ammo could simply be looking for hand-loads and letting pass the store-bought ammo. So that claim is now history.

Besides, if someone's hand-load blew up on him, and hurt him, or maybe someone else, I would think that THAT GUY would be liable. HE'S the one with the hand-load that failed, not the range.

So far, the only non-bogus argument in favor of this policy has been "we want more money, plain and simple." Everything else collapses under its own falsehood or illogic.

And anyone want to comment on the refusing-to-run-the-A.C. cheapness?? How do we explain that away? "Well, your comfort as a customer while you are shooting just does not mean as much to us as the money we save on our electric bill. But, oh, we still expect you to come here and dump money into OUR laps."

-Jeffrey

 

[JohnBT]

Falsehood or illogic?

Okay, everybody is either a liar or stupid.

John

 

[Werewolf]

And anyone want to comment on the refusing-to-run-the-A.C. cheapness?? How do we explain that away? "Well, your comfort as a customer while you are shooting just does not mean as much to us as the money we save on our electric bill. But, oh, we still expect you to come here and dump money into OUR laps."

Well I'll be DARNED! You do get it Jeffrey. Your comfort doesn't mean as much to them as the money they save on their electric bill. If it did they'd turn on the airconditioning.

That said:

What kind of cheese would you like with your whine? Some nice ripe Limburgher, perhaps?

OK! We Get it! You are pissed! You've made that perfectly clear - over and over and over and over again. A whole lot of shoulders around here have been wetted down thoroughly with your copious tears.

But you know what....

The great thing about capitalism is no one is holding a freaking gun to your head forcing you to use the indoor ranges you are railing against.

And in the seemingly likely case that you don't know it capitalism works because profit is a great incentive. People don't work for free.

Business owners run their businesses to maximize their profits (some better than others). It's what they do. It's who they are. They only care about you the customer in so far as doing what's necessary to get you to spend your money with them and not somewhere else and then its only the minimum required. Smart business owners know that good customer service is what keeps customers coming back and that repeat business is a major factor in maximizing profits. Unfortunately gun shop owners aren't traditionally the smartest business owners around. So deal with it or take your money elsewhere.

Cryin' about it isn't gonna change a thing - spending your money elsewhere will - but only if enough folks also spend their money else where. It's called capitalism!

AND besides you're just preaching to the choir here.

SO! Find another range - I supplied links to a whole bunch of them in another message in this thread. There are at least 2 private ranges run by gun clubs in your area referenced in the links provided. Both have outdoor ranges and believe me when I say outdoor ranges are way better than indoor ones.

Now stop crying (waaaaa - waaaaa) and go do some shootin'!

 

[Stauble]

peacefuljeffrey,
if you travel a bit furthers south to Broward County you can find some good ranges, some ar outdoor too.

 

[Moonclip]

I don't know why everyone is getting so worked up about this or why I'm really even responding to this anymore but like mentioned many other times, don't go to this range! The free market economics will show who is survival of the fittest in the ranges in your area. Shooting is not something you have to do like buy groceries and gasoline so believe me if the ranges start to feel the pinch from the opressive policies,they will change them and survive, or leave them in place and don't.


I don't know why eveyone thinks its a God given right for you to shoot outside ammo in a range. And yes, I have seen people sue for things that they should not be able to, you all I give credit for knowing that. Customer one time blew up a 45LC Ruger with an insane handload. Piece of metal went in to friends hand. Guy tried to sue his friend and the range, only thing that helps range was cheap shylock contingency lawyer guy retained sniffed around and saw that sueing an indoor range was a losing proposition. Kind of the lack of BMW's and Ferraris in employee parking area tipped him off I suppose!

The customers I supposedly drove off with my Wal MArt comments were the type of customers I did not really want or need anyways( the gun blow up guy was a Wal Mart fellow). I rather have the range space for the guys that would not try to sneak their ammo in to our rentals and would buy a target or two anyways. Most of the people who were Wal Mart type of folks ended up coming back sheepishly because they checked some of the other ranges available and were even more unhappy with their policies and setup and prices.

I know it's a bit silly to tell you to build your own range but seriously, if anyone can tell me how to operate a range with the AC going/rent /salaries/ect, and allow all outside ammo and targets and a low range fee I'm all ears and would like to know how you could accomplish that and break even or turn a little profit even, esp w/o gun sales. Rent alone in range I'm aware of was $7000 for 9600 square feet(So Cal area though) and the range was lucky to pull in 1000 a day on weekends sometimes. Weekdays can be notoriously slow.

I know a guy who got out of the range business, he runs a gun store in a very affluent area, he got tired of someone buying SIG210 or Colt Python from him without batting an eye and then chewing him out because a box of 9mm was 10 dollars. No one did answer me either, do you say as a fair compromise paying a 2-4 dollar fee for bringing your own stuff is fair? Please don't tell me the range is raping you for this too!

BTW do the ranges everyone is bitching about offer memberships? Many ranges that have high prices or rules on ammo are quire reasonable if you buy annual pass. If you shoot even 2 times a month they usually are well worth it. One range I know offrs 5visits for 35 dollars(now 40, the bastards!joking) and not penalty for outside ammo if you do so.

 

[dhoomonyou]

Part of the [problem that pisses me off is...

we as gun owners have ENOUGH trouble with anti's and all the other BS, that we do not need to turn against ourselves and be ripped off, or free marketed or anything else you wish to call it by businessmen/greedy people.

I would not mind paying an extra dollar or two per box of ammo, but not double.

just my 2 cents.

 

[ezypikns]

I Don't Blame Peaceful Jeffrey for Being Pissed.

If all the ranges in my area came up with the same policy, I'd be pissed too. The cost of everything seems to be rising beyond reason these days. I reload to keep my costs down. It would really put my nose out of joint to find I could not shoot my own reloads.
However, I would suggest that he carefully investigate other options. There must be some competiton for this range somewhere in his area. At least I hope so anyway.

 

[Babalouie]

I live in N. Broward and based on the attitude described I think I went to the same range to sight in some IPSC handloads. Now get this...I bought the powder at the same range. Since the last time I shot there they instituted this dumb policy. I could become a member of their reloading club (30 or 40 bucks a year if I remember correctly) and then pay an additional amount for both my son and I. Needless to say I refused to shoot there, left, and will NEVER go through that door again. It was maddening because its a nice range, well kept up and they have alot of firearms. Here is what it cost them... at least eight trips a year to their range, no more purchases for reloading components (I bought 80 bucks of powder last time I was there), no more target puchases. I was willing to pay extra for range time to shoot my reloads but the only reason I was there was to sight them in. Its just unreasonable to turn away business because you want more profit and it really did make me angry. Nobody likes to be taken advantage of or manipulated to be ripped off. It did make me angry and I hope enough people will come down to Broward to shoot to put them out of business. I have found 3 ranges down here that are happy for me to shoot my reloads and I am happy to give them my bussiness. Better yet, join a ipsc club and start having more fun shooting than you knew was possible.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Babalouie, I might as well be specific at last -- it was Delray Shooting Center. I had been there before, spent oodles of money on pocket knives ($125 for a Spyderco Gunting); range fees; I bought full capacity Glock 22 mags for my G27 there...

It really pisses me off that they are, as someone said, choosing to turn against their own (gun owners) when we have enough to deal with regarding antis trying to take away our rights, shut down ranges, close off hunting...

I think it rings hollow when people come here and claim that these ranges were just suddenly going out of business, after all these years of operating in just the same way they no longer do. Just like movie theaters were not struggling to get by before they started raking in billions by selling advertising time before the movies, I doubt that the gun shops like this one, at least, were faced with, "Force your customers to buy your overpriced stuff, or go under." They had their choice. They made it. I hope they suffer with it. It's simply abuse of good customers. It SHOULD come back to bite them on the ass.

And for Chrissakes, if it's not spitting in my face as a customer to charge me $10 and then leave the range un-air-conditioned, then I don't know what else could be more disrespectful to me, as a cash-paying customer.

I should continue to "vote with my wallet" and give them tacit approval of their policies? Even though they are essentially saying, "Screw YOU, we want your MONEY!"?!

No thanks. I'll be drafting and mailing that letter this week.

-Jeffrey

 

[Babalouie]

Yep, same place, same experience. Come on down to Markham park on Thursday night and check out South Florida Pistol Club and our weekly ipsc shoot. Its the best! There's also a good indoor range in Deerfield that's very accomidating. It's not as pretty as Delray and they don't have the inventory but they're good people and let me shoot me FMJ reloads.

 

[iiibdsiil]

I used to work about a rocks throw from Delray Shooting Center, they have always been kinda weird there. They seemed kinda sketchy in a way.

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Yeah, it's the place where some dude came in asking questions about some guns, and then when the counter guy took a phone call, he just ran out the door with, I think, two handguns.

The owner chased after him but, even though he fired several shots at him, lost the guy.

I'll withold major comment on that one, but I will say this:

At the time, I felt bad about the incident, bad for the owner, the shop, etc. Now I just wonder if it's not indicative of the owner/staff just having their heads up their patoots.

-Jeffrey

 

[Gunnutz13]

Same thing...

is happening up north here in Philly. Local gun range ( was called Britt's ) has just changed hands and goes under the name Security Systems or something. Walked into the range with a new shooter...seen the old owner talkin to the new ones...exchanged how ya do's...got introduced to the new owners, with the old owner saying what a good customer I've been through the years...and after I tell the new owners that I'll take 10 targets and my friend is gonna shoot with me and all that...he tells me that I gotta buy at least one box of ammo off him, as that is their new policy. My jaw must have dropped, and as I looked in disbelief at the old owner, he turned away as if to say...ain't my rule...and looked embarrassed. So, I bought a box of 357's for some inflated price ($14.00 for 50 )...gave him back half the inflated priced targets ( went from 25 to 75 cents for one B-27 ), paid the $10 fee for non-members for the new shooter...and then brought it to his attention that he will be pissin off all the regulars with this new rule, and probably lose a few to another range. He shrugged and I walked away knowing that I wasn't gonna be renewing my membership...which was just about to expire...and he noticed that. The price of membership also went up...I think it was almost doubled. Seen the old owner a few days ago at the supermarket...expressed my dismay...and he told me the two new owners felt justified in trying to recoup their investment...and also agreed that in the long run...the regulars would migrate elsewhere. I have since joined another range...so yea, it's a new trend...damn shame too !

 

[twency]

I think it rings hollow when people come here and claim that these ranges were just suddenly going out of business, after all these years of operating in just the same way they no longer do.

I think it rings hollow when people come here and claim that they are suddenly being ripped off by a business, even though they apparently have no real sense of how free enterprise works, with business owners taking on risk in exchange for the potential of reward.

Did you read my earlier comments? Times change. Costs increase.

That said, even if there is no underlying cost increase in the operating costs of the range, if the owner wants to raise prices, directly or indirectly, that's his or her prerogative. It's your prerogative to try to get the owner to see the error of his ways, and if you can't, to go elsewhere. And of course, it's your prerogative to complain about it endlessly, online or elsewhere.

It's how this country's economics have worked for centuries. As long as the business owner isn't doing something to violate the laws of the land (the number of which have never stopped rising, thus always increasing the regulatory burden on the business owner), he or she is free to set the policies the business. The business may thrive, it may stagnate, or it may go out of business. Only in the long run will it be possible to know for sure if the owner made the right choice from a business perspective. But the key is, business owners are the folks who plunked down the cash, or the collatoral for the loan, or whatever else they did to start or acquire the business. They get to set the rules, because it's their money on the line whether the business survives or fails. If you want the place run differently, and you can't convince the owner to see your perspective, then offer to buy the business, start your own, or go frequent somebody else's business.

Learn to embrace capitalism. It isn't perfect, but it's the best system that's been tried yet.

__________________
-twency

(Similarly: I work for somebody else, most of the time. I don't like how they run the business, but they put up the cash to buy the place, and they sign my paycheck. They get to set the rules. If I can't deal with the rules, I can complain all I want, but the only real options, if I can't change the mind of the owners, are to live with it, buy the place, or start my own competing business. In my own non-competing business, which brings in far less money, I get to set the rules. Someday I dream of being entirely my own boss, and setting all the rules. Until then, I understand that when somebody else runs the place, they get to set the rules.)

 

[JohnBT]

Anybody remember the days when the local police used the commercial ranges? Then they built their own.

Heck, the local indoor range is still across the street from the State Police headquarters.

John

 

[M99M12]

I just love going to the sand pit, finding a quiet spot, and while my wife gets the grill going, I make my way through a brick of .22's. Then she might toss some clays for my M-12 so I can look like a blind man. And then after eating, I'll work on some 300 yard rocks with my .308. My biggest problem is getting my guns back from the guy that owns the place. At least he buys his own ammo, sometimes.

 

[BerettaNut92]

To put it into perspective, they stopped allowing outside food and drink into the theaters long ago

 

[dhoomonyou]

and I stopped going to the movies.

 

[iiibdsiil]

But at the movies you aren't required to purchase food and drinks. At the range, I guess you can purchase range time and just sit there and look stupid. The movies you can get something out of it without having a bag of overpriced popcorn.

 

[hso]

This may be a little topic drift, but have any of you actually worked at an indoor range that the state Dept. of Enviromental Quality ("EPA") actually regulated? Are any of you DEQ regulatory enforcement officers that consider indoor ranges to fall within the Air regs?

The reason I ask is that several people have posted mentioning the "EPA" as being responsible for some of the difficulty in operating a range. This may not be the case since I know the new owners of the local indoor range actually had a former Fed EPA enforcement officer that is now a enviromental compliance consultant verify that they were not regulated under the state or fed air rules. In addition, a couple of the local Air Quality folks came in and left after talking with the owner (who was armed with this information) satisfied that the range didn't fall under their regulatory umbrella.

 

[deadin]

What's the next step

What do they do about odd chamberings? (22 Jet, 401 Power Mag, 9mm Largo, etc.) Just tell you you can't shoot ?
I guess the next step will be you have to shoot their guns (with their ammo at their targets).

Follow this to the ultimate solution....
They will do the shooting, and we can pay to watch............

 

[Gunnutz13]

When I do go to the movies...

the wife brings in the popcorn and soda in a shopping bag from the same mall. They never even ask...

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I sighted in the EOTech on my AR the other day. The range wanted to see my ammo. I told them it was S&B. "Well if it's S&B, it's steelcore and you can't use it here. Can't use WWB, cuz it's 3600 fps, right at our limit. In fact we've made a rule that you have to buy all rifle ammo at our facility."

"Well, I've got this box of Olympic that I bought HERE." ($12/50 rnds)

"Fine, you can use that. As a matter of fact, we're all outta that, but we do have the Remington and Federal stuff." ($14/20 rnds)

I can see I won't be frequenting this range much with the AR.

 

[Zero]

Range owners need to make a living too.

And for the OP, you were disgusted that he was going to charge you $12 when it's $10 at Wal-Mart. LOL if that $2 is going to break you, then perhaps you should sell your guns and buy some mac-and-cheese so you can eat. Bottom line, gunshops and ranges are a business like any other. If you were a restaraunt owner, you wouldn't like it if people came and sat at one of your tables, then pulled out their own food from a brown bag and started eating, only ordering a coke?

 

[dhoomonyou]

Range owners need to make a living too.
And for the OP, you were disgusted that he was going to charge you $12 when it's $10 at Wal-Mart. LOL if that $2 is going to break you, then perhaps you should sell your guns and buy some mac-and-cheese so you can eat. Bottom line, gunshops and ranges are a business like any other. If you were a restaraunt owner, you wouldn't like it if people came and sat at one of your tables, then pulled out their own food from a brown bag and started eating, only ordering a coke?

TRUE, BUT I dont offer to buy the ovens at McDonalds either.