ROA loading questions

[Vermonter]

I finally am getting a Ruger Old Army

I've already ordered some 210gr Big Lube bullets and will also be getting a bunch of .457 round balls.

I'm wondering how much powder folks are able to fit with the Big Lubes and the round balls. I'll be using 777 so don't want much compression.

I also am wondering about some details of loading blackpowder revolvers in general. If I have too much powder in the cylinder and can't get the ball/bullet to seat all the way, what's the best way to get it out of the cylinder? Also, if using smaller amounts of powder, is it ok to have the ball/bullet be seated below the face of the cylinder, or should I plan on using some filler or thicker wads? It seems like it would be good to have the ball/bullet not allow the cylinder to turn if it's slipped forward and created an air gap inside the cylinder. But as I'm figuring things out it won't always be possible to know how much filler or thickness of wad to use. I know I'm probably over-analyzing this, but I might as well try to get it perfect

Do I really need wads if I'm shaving a ring of lead? I've read that the Big Lubes shouldn't need a wad. What about the round balls?

 

[higene]

ROA loads

ROAs are very accurate with 20-25 gr of powder and round balls. For magnum loads with Goex I just fill the cylinder to the top and compress the whole thing down so the ball clears the frame. (I'm sure that is not recommended and several folks will tell us we're all gonna die.)

With conicals I would start at 20 and work up to see what you and your pistol like. I use Bore
Butter. I recommend some grease over the loads. It keeps the fouling down. I have used over powder wonder wads for target loads. They increase the cost of shooting and I did not see the benefit. On light loads the lever bottoms out at a 90 degree angle. With 457 balls you should shave a neat little ring (WHICH CAN JAM THE GUN if left lying around). I turn the gun sideways like a Gangsta when I cock it and straighten up to shoot. Cap debris is the main cause of jamming for me. With 457s I have never had ball creep become a problem.

I shoot mostly 25-35 gr loads because the gun is so d*mn accruate.

777 and Pyrodex shoot fine but why cheat yourself out of all the smoke and fire.

 

[George Mabry]

Higene, when using 20-25 grains do you have to use a filler between the ball and the powder?

 

[higene]

ROA loads

I have. I mostly shoot 25 and up. With 25 I do not use over powder wads or filler. I do use Bore butter.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

For CAS, I load 20 grains FFFg and a .454 or .457 roundball or a 150 grain EPP-UG big lube boolit. When I use the 210 grain big lubes, I go up to 25 grains FFFg.

I use a cylinder loader from Powder inc, although Dick Dastardly's are also very well made.
powder inc cylinder loader
Dick's cylinder loader

With either of these, you can load deep into the cylinder & not use filler.

When I use filler over roundballs, I use cornmeal and load it to within about 1/4" of the cylinder face. Roundball compresses the cornmeal & the cornmeal compresses the powder--very consistent.

Big lubes do not require grease over the top because of their huge lube groove.

Roundballs do.
I use either Gateofeo's recipe, or Carlos El Hombre's recipe, both of which can be found here:
lube recipes

No, you don't need wads.
If yer using filler, it will stop chain fires.
If yer using grease over the balls, it will stop chain fires.
If yer using a grease cookie or a lubed big lube boolit, it will stop chain fires
Some of the cleanest barrels I ever had came when I made 1/4" grease cookies out of Gateofeo's lube and put it between the ball & powder. This is very easy to do with a cylinder loader, harder if you are using the integral rammer.

It depends on what you are doing with the gun.
Cap guns are typically more accurate with lighter loads.
For shooting fast on CAS stages, you also want to keep recoil down.
For hunting, it is another thing all together.
--Dawg

 

[mykeal]

I'm wondering how much powder folks are able to fit with the Big Lubes and the round balls.

I haven't used teh Big Lubes, but I've loaded as much as 35 grains by volume into a ROA chamber under a .457 round ball, no filler or wad. Not a good load for accuracy.

If I have too much powder in the cylinder and can't get the ball/bullet to seat all the way, what's the best way to get it out of the cylinder?

Remove the nipple and push the ball and powder column out with a brass or wood rod.

Also, if using smaller amounts of powder, is it ok to have the ball/bullet be seated below the face of the cylinder, or should I plan on using some filler or thicker wads?

There is no problem with the projectile being below the cylinder face; just be sure the projectile is seated on the powder column. Some folks feel it's more accurate if the projectile is as close to the cylinder face as possible, but I've never been able to see the benefit in my shooting.

 

[ClemBert]

I usually shoot with 35 grains 777 with a lubricated wonder wad and .457 swagged lead ball. I've tried 40 grains but its difficult when using a wonder wad as this requires some compression...something that 777 doesn't like. 40 grains with or without wonder wad should work fine with black powder. If you don't use a wonder wad then there should be room for 40 grains of either 777 or BP with no compression....just use lube over the ball in this case.

 

[arcticap]

Cabela's vegetable fiber wads are made in 2 thicknesses and cost less than 2 cents each which is very economical. A person can also either buy or make a wadcutter to punch out their own wads from materials found around the house or material can be bought in bulk resulting in greatly reduced cost over factory made wool wads. Either way, 2 cents each is a price that's hard to beat.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6647684&postcount=5

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabe...=0&Ntk=AllProducts&Ntt=wads&x=13&y=9&Ntt=wads

 

[AbitNutz]

Not to seem like a jerk but I have found wads any projectile to be pretty much worthless. I've stopped using them, have fired many hundreds of R/B and bullets with no ill effects. The only time I think them worthwhile is to take up space on light loads. That seems smarter to me rather than using filler.

 

[bubba15301]

i have used 40 grains of 3f 777 behind a rb

 

[ClemBert]

Not to seem like a jerk but I have found wads any projectile to be pretty much worthless. I've stopped using them, have fired many hundreds of R/B and bullets with no ill effects. The only time I think them worthwhile is to take up space on light loads. That seems smarter to me rather than using filler.

For some folks they are worthless but for others they are useful. It depends on a number of things. Some folks use them primarily as a mechanism to seal the chambers from chain fire. If you have irregular chambers or the balls you cast are too hard then it ups the chance of a chain fire. Yes, even if you shave a lead ring. For other folks they are used as a mechanism to deliver lubrication (lubricated felt wads) to keep fouling soft and to help prevent their cylinders from binding up. If you use BigLube bullets then you probably would find a lubricated wad to be overkill. Also, if you use 777 instead of black powder you'll find that 777 creates a "lube residue" when it burns. Thus, 777 offers some level of integrated lube that just might be enough to prevent cylinder binding issues. I certainly notice the greasy film left behind by 777.

Personally, when I'm shooting real BP I like to use lubricated wads. I find smearing lube on top of the balls to be a ridiculous exercise in how to quick-coat your eye protection, hat, shoes and everything else with lube. Lubricated wads are less messy and simpler to use.

YMMV

 

[Iskra]

When RB is not fully seated you can shave/cut the little excessive part with a good, sharp knife. It is soft lead and it will not do too much harm to the blade either. It is also much faster than the disassembly process. Keep the cylinder uncapped during the operation.

 

[AbitNutz]

Ok, I can give you the lubrication aspect of a wad that may make the it easier to clean out the crud from 777. However, I've never used any "over the ball lube" or wads or anything but a tightly fitted ball or bullet and never run into a problem. I'm certainly no ultra expert but I've never had a chain fire, nor seen one, nor spoken to anyone who'd actually had one. Again, I'm not saying that I've seen it all but I've shot a whole lot out of my ROA with just every kind of combination ball, bullet, powder and cap out of my ROA and the only problem I've ever had was a misfire due to my not cleaning the nipples well enough. And all I have to do to fix that is to remember to blow some compressed canned air through them and then fire a round of caps with no charges. I f I do that then I almost never had a problem.
Again, I know I'll get hit by everyone who's ever had an issue, chain fire or whatever. I've just never had a problem and all wads and lube over have ever caused me was a bigger mess and more cost. My standard load is a pure lead BigLube 210 gr bullet, Pearl lube or Bull Shop NASA, Triple 7 and RWS caps if I have them or Remington #10's or #11's. And I always use an external loader, Like Dick Dastardly's . I think this lets me load the stack more consistently every time.


Please understand ...I am not setting myself super expert. I have just found that this is what works for me and my ROA, which has been had more than a few modifications to it.

 

[ClemBert]

My standard load is a pure lead BigLube 210 gr bullet, Pearl lube or Bull Shop NASA, Triple 7 and RWS caps if I have them or Remington #10's or #11's.

Hi AbitNutz,

I wasn't pickin' on ya. And, I wasn't tryin' to challenge you on what you were sayin'. The ROA is the finest BP revolver ever made IMHO and for that reason you generally can count on it having better tolerances than some of the other BP revolvers made. For that reason you may or may not expect it to have less of a chance for chain fire issues versus those with inconsistently bored chambers (I said "may or may not").

Anyhow, the reason for my response was because I didn't want a new ROA owner or for that matter any new BP revolver owner to get the impression that felt wads are useless or add no value to the equation. Like I said, or implied, it depends on the situation. That is, it could depend on your specific revolver or choice of powder or choice of projectile.

In your case, you are using a BigLube bullet that has plenty of lube to minimize fouling and binding. Also, you are using 777 that creates it's own greasy "lube". On top of that, the ROA because of the improvement of the cylinder design versus the Colt or Remington minimizes the fouling/binding issue.

Lubricated felt wads can be useful for more than just filler. That was the point to be made. If you can get away without using them then that is a good situation to be in. I know you were giving your input on your personal experience. I was just trying to balance the discussion out with another perspective.

 

[AJumbo]

I tried using all the 4f I could fit behind a .457 ball and completely failed to blow the gun to atoms. I didn't have access to a chronograph at the time, but I'm inclined to think that maybe the load was a hair faster than a similar load with 3f. The owner's manual used to state that the revolver was warranted to withstand a full charge of any sporting grade black powder- note that my ROA was built before Pyrodex hit the market- so for 25 years or so I've been keeping my eyes open for a can of Curtis & Harvey 6f. I'll probably need wheelwieght RBs to make that work, though.

 

[arcticap]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393793&highlight=bent+ruger

ROA ffffg loads from 1975 Lyman Book/ROA 7 1/2

Test Gun.......................Ruger Old Army 7 1/2" bbl...
Projectile.......................R.B. .457" 143gr
Charge..........................41.0gr ffffg G-O powder
Velosity (FPS)................1036
Muzzle Energy (FT./lbs.)...340

Not bad, I have had this book some time Copywrite 1975.

SG

 

[mykeal]

I tried using all the 4f I could fit behind a .457 ball ...I've been keeping my eyes open for a can of Curtis & Harvey 6f.

Why do you want to do this?

 

[Eights]

I use ClemBert's recipe almost exactly. I have gone down to 20 grains of 777 a few times, and as high as 40 grains (or maybe 45, I don't remember) a few times. 40 has been more trouble than it's worth for me due to jumping balls and tight fits, and 20 grains was what what the wife insisted I load for her. My wife reminded me of the pirates on the "Pirates of the Carribean" ride at Disneyland when she shot the 20 grain loads. Very little recoil, but still plenty of smoke.

35 grains of 777, .457 round ball, lubed wad or cornmeal filler (not both), and Remington caps are the preferred dose for me. VERY few misfires, very few jumping balls, no chain fires, and a little cylinder room for comfort.

I don't have the fancy tools that some have, but I would guess that the ball fired under the conditions above is very lethal. I know it's accurate out of my gun. The perceived recoil comparable, perhaps stiffer than my G19, and the ROA is heavy.

This gun is the most pleasurable to shoot of any gun I have ever used. The process only adds to the appeal.

If you stick to 20 to 35 grains, wad or filler, and a round ball and quality caps, you should be just fine.

 

[AJumbo]

Mykeal- Why? For the same reason folks buy the extra-capacity cylinders and use full charges of 777 therein; the same reason I tried Maxi-Balls for a hunting load; good ol' impractical fun. If I really want a blood-and-thunder BP revolver, I'll get a Walker. Besides, has anyone actually SEEN pound of 6f? I'm probably safe from myself.

Looking back in my ROA notebook, I found an entry saying that 4f was running right through the nipples and out on to the bench when I poured it in the chambers. The only two solutions I had at the time were to cap the nipples before charging (a bad idea I did not run with) or to put a small piece of flash paper down in the chamber before charging. That second one worked, but was too fiddly for the field, so I went back to 3f or Pyrodex P. At the time, the Uncle Mike's replacement nipples I could get had exactly the same aperture as the Ruger nipples.

Also of note- extensive use of 4f loads caused some gas cutting of the top strap, in line with the barrel/cylinder gap. Ruger's silhouette revolver (the SRM?) had the same trouble, though the cutting seemed to stop at a depth of .030.

 

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I have a 1lb. can of 7F Mt. State sells it I think. Anyway they used to. Swiss "Null B" is about the same.