Roanoke Newspaper Bans Gun Ads-NRA Pounces

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I'm suggesting that you understand there are rights beyond firearms rights. That includes the right of this publisher to accept ads from whomever he sees fit. Don't like his decision? Don't read the paper. "Fairness" is not an issue here. Why do you want to tell the publisher how he should run his business?
First of all, this hasn't got squat to do with rights ... again, nobody is calling for a law demanding the paper do X, Y or Z.
Second, if you're going to boycott a business for any reason, if you don't tell the business you are boycotting then how are they going to know? If nothing else, contacting the paper and telling them you're canceling your subscription because of this policy helps HIM by giving him invaluable feedback (something all businesses wish they could get from every customer).

In addition, the removal of non FFL firearms listings is done for political reasons. In order to "make a statement". So the editor is basically ASKING for a response. I also believe his intention is like that of all elitist anti-gun folk, and that is to insult the gun owning community ... this wasn't a purely business decision, this was a slap in the face to the honest gun owning (and selling) members of the community. He deserves to lose money just as much as if he stopped allowing Rap music CDs to be sold via his publication (or pick the wares of any group of people as the target).


Furthermore, this is a discussion forum for gun related issues, yet you come here and say we're in the wrong for simply discussing a gun related issue ... this is odd and why I questioned what you were trying to say in the first place.
 
They are free to accept ads and payment or decline same from anybody they want. If they don't want the revenue from running private sale ads, that's their business decision

Joe, it may be his right to refuse those advertisements. Sure. But fair is fair. It's the right of any or all gun owners to boycott that newspaper if they so choose. We have rights too.

It's also important to note, however, that as a means of mass communication, newspapers, radio stations, television stations, etc, often are positioned as a virtual monopoly, and in some cases, a government sanctioned one (especially broadcast media). They bear a certain responsibility to be fair and impartial in that respect. So, they shouldn't be surprised when people vote with their wallet and stop buying the newspaper and stop taking out advertisements. If they don't want our money, fine. We won't give it to them. What's wrong with making it an organized campaign of depriving them of our business?
 
What's wrong with making it an organized campaign of depriving them of our business?

Not one single thing...as long as we are being honest with ourselves that it is about rival political goals, not fairness. As a good friend of mine (and world-class gun nut) put it: "Fairness is something the have-nots whine about; to the haves, things are always emminently fair."
 
“Our tightening policy ensures that firearms advertising in our newspaper is restricted to licensed dealers who are subject to these background checks,” he quoted Nan Mahone, the newspaper’s marketing director, saying.

Hmmm , so if a group of FFLs had taken out an ad that they were having specials on some of their firearms , and to get those special prices /deals , they simply needed to go to a local gun show where they , FFLs, will be while running their specials . Would they have let that slide? :rolleyes:
 
hopefully anyone who supports RKBA and is a subscriber will let his or her wallet do the talking. Thats the most likely way to produce results.
 
errr... has anyone asked the local gun shops/licenced dealers to pull all ads from the paper? i mean, it depends on how much business those guys give the paper, but its a dent in the pocket book, right?
 
What if they had a policy refusing ads from adult book stores, gay bars, strip clubs, or "escort services?" Would you all be this righteously indignant?
It would depend on the paper, if they ran ads for straight bars and not gay bars I would. The other issues you mention seem to range from distinctly adult activities to the illegal. If a paper wants to keep its pages safe for reading by all ages by not allowing adult oriented material, I understand. Have guns reached the point where we consider them something inappropriate to expose children to like sexuality or prostitution? I sure hope not.

He has declined ads for private sales. Are ads in his newspaper the sole venue for such sales? Further, it is his right to make such a judgement.
Of course it is. Their readers and subscribers also have a right to let the the newspaper and its advertisers know that they don't approve of their decision and will be reacting accordingly. Don't confuse the freedom to make such a decision with freedom from having to deal with the repercussions of it. If you want to hang up a sign out front of your store that says "no blacks allowed" I fully support your right to do that, but you'll have to deal with the backlash of your decision, of which many people including myself would probably also be involved with.
 
errr... has anyone asked the local gun shops/licenced dealers to pull all ads from the paper? i mean, it depends on how much business those guys give the paper, but its a dent in the pocket book, right?

They won't allow ANY gun related ads in the paper. Trust me, I know many of the dealers around and they are doing their best to have people cancel their subscriptions. This paper is a Communist rag and leftist regime that will be hurting soon. We're all tired of their idiotic reporters and journalists.
 
" This paper is a Communist rag and leftist regime that will be hurting soon. We're all tired of their idiotic reporters and journalists."

then start your own rag..... roanoke is big enough for two papers.
 
Gotta agree with Joe. Newspapers can choose what to print, and whom they allow to advertise and place classifieds.

I'd be inclined to agree with Joe, you, and the other Libertarians if newspapers were in fact "like any other business."

But they are not "like any other business" and neither is any medium that claims and enjoys special protection and privileges.

The media--including newspapers--have protection and privileges denied to department stores, funeral parlors, gas stations, dry cleaners, and all other businesses.

The Roanoke Times's special protection and privileges were not granted for the sake of improving the profits of Landmark Communications--the communications conglomerate that owns the Roanoke Times, many other newspapers, and television stations--or enabling it to disseminate its own political bias and social agenda.

My sense is that the Roanoke Times is the only large daily newspaper published in that area. When it denies legal businesses the ability to advertise in its pages the newspaper closes a significant channel over which it exerts monopolistic control. Those businesses and individuals can't go elsewhere: there is no "elsewhere" for them to go.

I was about to say something on the order of "At least one of our resident Libertarians is sure to say 'then start your own newspaper,' but I just checked the messages posted and see that it has already been done. Now I don't look like a prophet. Darn.

I'd be inclined to agree with that statement too as long as we agree that if you don't like gun control in this country you need to start your own country. If you don't like lead paint on your child's toys why don't you start your own toy factory. If you don't like rat turds in your food why don't you start your own farm, your own meat processing plant, your own cannery, and your own grocery. If you don't like the water here why don't you get your own hydrogen and oxygen and make it yourself. If you don't like the way we run things here why don't you move. If you don't like it you need to go.

Why is it, I wonder, that Libertarians speak generally as if they are in favor of individual freedom but whenever a specific issue arises they inevitably assert the right of businesses to supress it. And why, I wonder, whenever there's an issue involving a clash between businesses and gun owners they never support the gun owners.
 
Yes, a paper has the RIGHT to choose what they want to print and what they DON'T want to print.

Customers also have a right to choose whether or not to buy a paper based on what it prints.

No one's saying that they should be FORCED to print things they don't want to. They're just saying that if you don't agree with their policies, you should:

1. Let them know.
2. Choose not to purchase their product.

This is not an issue of anyone abridging anyone's rights, it's merely showing a business that there are consequences to annoying or offending a large portion of the population. They're free to keep refusing firearms ads, but it may cost them subscribers. That's life.
 
Yes, a paper has the RIGHT to choose what they want to print and what they DON'T want to print.

Ah for the good old days when papers exercised their right to print that blacks were inferior to whites, that Jews were not human, that Catholics were controlled by Rome, that Italians were criminals, and that women should not be paid the same as men for the same work.

Photographs of a good lynching on the front page were a great way to start the day, the absence of photos of black weddings gave the paper a nice uniform appearance, and there was much less confusion when the newspaper used its right not to print things because they could refuse ads by businesses run by people of races, religions, and national origins the publisher happened not to like.

Whatever happened to those good old days and how soon can we bring about their return? Don't you just miss them terribly?
 
I have no idea how you got ANY of that out of my post...

Perhaps I badly miscommunicated, but my point was that if a business does something the public (or a good portion of the public) doesn't like, it will have to deal with the consequences of offending those people. That doesn't mean that anyone's rights have been taken away, it only means that actions have consequences.
 
Business decision? Whatever happened to freedom of the press??

Oh I guess they are practicing it--they are free to print WHAT THEY WANT!!!!
 
Is it still like this in the south?

http://www.cobalt6.net/showDiary.do?diaryId=583

They say the south will rise again, sure hope not.

Thomas Jefferson was a special person, I wonder what he would think?

This about covers it:

Grandpa, I've been thinking 'bout you lately
Wondering if you'd found your peace of mind
And I guess that you'd be proud to know your grandson
Never crossed that Mason Dixon line.

And I still sing the old songs that you taught me
An' I still pray to Jesus now and then
And just like you I wish that He would save me
To see the day the south will rise again.

Daddy wore his Purple Heart so proudly
Long before I turned into a man
And buried with our flag across his casket
I was still too young to understand.

And I still sing the old songs that you taught me
An' I still pray to Jesus now and then
And just like you I wish that he would save me
To see the day the south will rise again.

Mama spent her last days in the garden
While I took my turn behind a gun
Lord, I'd give my life to find the freedom
Lost within the old songs that you sung.

And I still sing the old songs that you taught me
An' I still pray to Jesus now and then
And just like you I wish that He would save me
To see the day the south will rise again.
 
I have no idea how you got ANY of that out of my post...

Perhaps I badly miscommunicated, but my point was that if a business does something the public (or a good portion of the public) doesn't like, it will have to deal with the consequences of offending those people. That doesn't mean that anyone's rights have been taken away, it only means that actions have consequences.

I'm happy to explain, John. The first paragraph of your post was this one sentence: "Yes, a paper has the RIGHT to choose what they want to print and what they DON'T want to print."

What I think you said in that one sentence paragraph was that a paper has the RIGHT to choose what they want to print and what they DON'T want to print.

After you compare what you said with what I think you said, I hope you'll agree that I didn't misunderstand your statement.

If you're distressed by the implications of your statement, rest assured that I'm no less distressed by those implications. What I did was pursue the implications from what you said to where they led. It's true that you didn't use the examples I did but all of my examples are drawn from well known reality during times and in places when newspapers exercised what you assert are their rights: to choose what they want to print and what they don't want to print.

They do have those rights. On that point we are in complete agreement. Where we probably disagree is that I think that because a newspaper has special privileges and protections it has assumed a duty to serve the public by being generally fair and inclusive. I don't think it fulfills that duty by imposing its own political or social agendas on the public. It certainly has the right to be biased against African Americans, Jews, Italians, Poles, Asians, Hispanics, gun owners, boat owners, car owners, beer drinkers, cigar smokers, women, homosexuals, or disabled people, for example, and it also has the right to be biased towards any of those groups or others. But I've illustrated where some of those biases have led in the past and I hope you agree that they did not lead to good places--not places where I, and I hope you, want to be led or want our communities led.

Perhaps, then, you might at least consider the possibility a newspaper is not simply a business like any other business, and that in return for the special privileges and protection it receives it has assumed the duty I mentioned. The privileges and protection include not only the special freedom of the press but also special subsidies from the public purse in the form of reduced mailing rates. You pay more to mail a letter through the United States Postal Service because newspapers, magazines, and book publishers pay less. They don't carry their own weight. You, I, and other individuals carry some of it for them. I want at least some semblance of fairness in return for my money. It's interesting that you don't. You're much more charitable than I.

The executives and shareholders of Landmark Communications, the conglomerate that owns the Roanoke Times, might all be sincere in their belief that all citizens of the U.S. should be denied access to firearms and that those firearms should be confiscated and destroyed tomorrow. I don't mind them holding such beliefs. But I don't want them abusing their public trust as newspaper publishers and television station operators to disseminate those beliefs. I could be persuaded to change my mind if they turned over half of their companies to me so I could disseminate my beliefs on equal footing with them, or even if they just disclaimed any special protection or privileges in a legally binding way. But when they abuse the leverage you, I, and others grant them and when they do it to leverage their own biases and ideas, that I won't accept. You do. So do others here. That's interesting to me because it's always fascinating to watch people passionately committed to their own destruction. I could do without it though.

There is no benefit to the public--to me, to you, or to anyone else--if a newspaper is operated to disseminate the views and biases of its owners and staff. It's fallacious to argue there is a free marketplace of ideas in the case of the only newspaper published in the area or that the newspaper will sink if a significant number of its readers don't approve of it. There is no competing newspaper for advertisers who rely on newspapers. As for the statement that people who don't like it can start their own newspaper and compete, there's a sense of unreality about such thinking unless someone happens to have a great many millions of dollars kicking around to launch and support the competing newspaper in the years it might take to establish it. I doubt that more than two or three people in this very busy forum have that kind of money to risk: Bluestartlizard obviously has that kind of money and maybe you do too, but I'm a little short this year and I suspect that most other forum members are too. And that's the wonderful part of the thinking behind Bluestartlizard's suggestion: it completely excludes the poor and the middle class, so it sounds good but there's no danger that any but the very rich could act on it.

Sure, the Roanoke Times has the right to print whatever it wants and not to print whatever it doesn't want, but just because a business might have the right to do something doesn't mean that it's right for them to do it. The Roanoke Times probably also has the right to completely ignore coverage of any candidate that does not further its political or social agendas while it gives extensive coverage to those candidates it supports: they would be exercising their right to print whatever they want and not to print whatever it doesn't want. And of course anyone who doesn't like it could start a competing newspaper tomorrow, or maybe on Monday. But are those responses the least bit rational?

I'm still puzzled by gun owners who argue so fervently in support of the people and businesses that want to destroy them. Should we all agree now to contribute to the Brady Campaign, vote for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, and pass out leaflets for the UN movement to disarm American citizens? Or shall we merely argue for their rights and argue against anyone here who opposes them? After all, Hillary and Barack have the right to assert that the Second Amendment is obsolete and doesn't mean that you can own any firearm at all.
 
What I think you said in that one sentence paragraph was that a paper has the RIGHT to choose what they want to print and what they DON'T want to print.
I confess that I did not read the entire thread but merely responded to several posts indicating that it was somehow infringing on the paper's rights to let them know that their policy was off base.

I didn't intend to interrupt your rant and have no interest in debating how a newspaper differs from any other profit-motivated business nor how those differences do or don't affect their obligations/rights/privileges compared to other profit-motivated businesses. Nor do I intend to let any such differences (whether they do or don't exist and regardless of their significance) color my actions or thinking as it applies to my response to a paper that espouses a policy I find odious. I'll treat it just like any other business in terms of the methods I would use to try to "motivate" it to clean up its act.
 
I confess that I did not read the entire thread but merely responded to several posts indicating that it was somehow infringing on the paper's rights to let them know that their policy was off base.

I didn't intend to interrupt your rant and have no interest in debating how a newspaper differs from any other profit-motivated business nor how those differences do or don't affect their obligations/rights/privileges compared to other profit-motivated businesses. Nor do I intend to let any such differences (whether they do or don't exist and regardless of their significance) color my actions or thinking as it applies to my response to a paper that espouses a policy I find odious. I'll treat it just like any other business in terms of the methods I would use to try to "motivate" it to clean up its act.


No need to apologize for interrupting my rant, John, and of course you needn't read threads before responding to them. This is America. Long paragraphs with complete sentences in them that develop thoughts can be hard to read.

I apologize to you for even seeming to imply that you might change your mind about the statement you made. Your mind is made up, that's that, and it's your right. Don't consider changing your mind even when to do so supports the action you intend to take.

There are only three paragraphs in this message, so I don't think it's a rant or even a tirade and perhaps little more than a quibble. If it's still too long just stop reading wherever you like. Or skip over every third word. :)
 
Don't consider changing your mind even when to do so supports the action you intend to take.
I noticed that. I must admit that the hardest arguments to counter are the ones that agree with one's premise. Hopefully the confusion showed in my response.
Robert Hairless said:
There three this , I it's or tirade little a . it's long reading like. over word.
:confused:
 
How the Roanoke Times violates its own policies

See? It does work. :)

I've no quarrel with your decision, John, but that sentence about the newspaper's rights will get you where you don't want to go and in company you might not want to keep.

In case I've been unclear, I think that rights always carry responsibilities and that special rights carry special responsibilities. The Roanoke Times has demonstrated its own political and social agendas that abuse its rights, ignore its responsibilities, and seriously damages the community it professes to serve. It already has caused innocent people to suffer great personal harm, and it will not stop.

You might be surprised to know that the CEO of Landmark Communications, owner of the Roanoke Times, agrees with my analysis and anticipated it years ago. He says that it's how the newspaper should behave and does. Here's what he says in the company's "News and Editorial Mission and Vision" statement for the Roanoke Times:

Newspapers live entirely on the bounty of the public. The ability of journalists to report and to comment is based upon a unique grant of freedom from the public. Thus our duty is clear: It is to serve the public with skill and character, and to exercise First Amendment freedoms with vigor and responsibility. Our news reports should never be influenced by the private interests of the owners or of any other group.

But they are. And now its advertising policies are too. They need to stop lying to the public and abusing its trust. You might want to point out that hypocrisy if you communicate with the Roanoke Times and/or its advertisers. The advertisers should demand that this newspaper become a more suitable environment for them. Now.

I see no hope for this newspaper's management, editors, and reporters: they've evidently created the level of newspaper in which they feel most comfortable, like pigs wallowing happily in the mud.

The CEO also said in that same statement:

The credibility of our news report requires fairness and impartiality. It demands the
avoidance of conflicts of interest - or even the appearance of such conflicts - that might raise
suspicion that the newspaper or its staffers pursue political or other agendas in news columns. For that reason, staff members must exercise great care before becoming involved in any political activity beyond registering and voting.

He is correct. The credibility of that newspaper is tarnished beyond hope by its unrelenting pursuit of political and other agendas. Get rid of that entire staff or stop the presses and turn off the lights.
 
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"The credibility of our news report requires fairness and impartiality. It demands the
avoidance of conflicts of interest - or even the appearance of such conflicts - that might raise
suspicion that the newspaper or its staffers pursue political or other agendas in news columns. For that reason, staff members must exercise great care before becoming involved in any political activity beyond registering and voting."

He is correct. The credibility of that newspaper is tarnished beyond hope by its unrelenting pursuit of political and other agendas. Get rid of that entire staff or stop the presses and turn off the lights.
That brings up what I think might be an interesting side discussion. Historically journalism, and newspapers especially made no effort to present themselves or their articles without bias. Its the very reason why so many towns have a "city Democrat" as their newspaper and not the "city politically neutral." Eventually we get to Hearst and Pultizer fighting for readers and turning to yellow journalism which is often blamed for getting the US involved in the spanish american war. That seems to be about the point where we see backlash against biased reporting and perhaps the start of today's trend toward "unbiased" journalism. Of course we all know that isn't the way it is, but I wonder if any harm has been done by trying to leave the public with the impression that journalists are unbiased and impartial. Maybe it was better when journalists and newspapers were at least up front about their biases and didn't try to claim impartiality.
 
They are free to accept ads and payment or decline same from anybody they want. If they don't want the revenue from running private sale ads, that's their business decision

I'm suggesting that you understand there are rights beyond firearms rights. That includes the right of this publisher to accept ads from whomever he sees fit. Don't like his decision? Don't read the paper. "Fairness" is not an issue here. Why do you want to tell the publisher how he should run his business?

You are damned right there are rights beyond the 2nd. One of them is free speech. Some folk tend to think free speech means "I can say what I want, and if you disagree, well you just be quiet" B.S. Free speech works like this. You can say what you want. I can then tell you I think you are wrong, and a moron, *****, or whatever.

You are absolutely right that the paper can do whatever it wants. But we are also absolutely correct in our response, to vocally criticize that descision, and do so with our spending cash.

No one has declared that we should change a law, or go and burn down their buildings.
 
Doesn't the weekly Valley Trading Post still take gun ads? www.nvo.com/vtp

In Richmond there are FAR more gun ads in the Trading Post than in the daily paper. A couple of columns vs. a couple of ads. You only pay if you sell.

Give 'em heck if you want to, or just ignore them. I'd give 'em heck and still advertise in the Trading Post.

John
 
The trading post type publications is the alternative place to advertise. I would choose them over the newspaper. Like the politicians in often focusing on the para-military type rifle (a subset of gun owners), the newspaper appears to be dropping what it probably considers to be a low revenue side of their business to make their statement. Their anti-gun slant has been pointed out a number of times in this forum in the past.

The newspaper is using what in essence is a monoply on the local area advertising. What they may not have thought of is that gun owers are also business owners. They do not need to advertise their businesses there if they can find an effective alternative.
 
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