Rob Haught Tactical Shotgun Class Review

[Dave Williams]

I have enjoyed hearing about other forum members experiences at shotgun classes so much, that when I finally took one myself, I thought I'd share the experience with you all.

I recently attended Rob Haught's One Day Tactical Shotgun Program, at Fort Harmar Rifle Club, in Marietta, Oh. Rob is a Police Chief in West Virginia and a Contract Trainer for Federal SWAT teams. He is the orginator of a shotgun program that is in use by some of the most elite law enforcement and military units in the nation, and taught at the FBI and DEA academies. He is a graduate of some of the top firearms programs in the country. He is also a top competitor in IDPA, being a member of Team Beretta.

Rob is the real deal, has Been There Done That, a dynamic instructor who thinks outside the box to come up with better ways to do things, and simply an amazing shooter with a variety of weapon systems, whch he can provide training in. He is not wed to any techniques, using appropriate techniques for individual situations.

The cost for the intense, fast paced 9-5 training day was $70 per student, which is extremely reasonable, and there were 13 (12 men and 1 woman) very capable students, divided into 2 relays, on 6 reactive humanoid shaped steel targets. We used cardboard IDPA targets for the slug portion of the class. We had a bit of a rain delay in the afternoon, so class was extended a bit, and we ended up driving off after policing up the range at around 7pm. We shot, on average per student, about 300rds of 7 1/2 birdshot, 25rds of 00 buck, and 10 slugs.

The students were all using 12ga shotguns. There was a Mossberg pump, a Winchester 1300 pump, a FN tactical autoloader, a Benelli M1 Super 90, a Beretta 1201FP, 2 Remington 1100s, a Remington 1187P, and about 8 Remington 870s in different configurations, including a neat 14" Vang Comp gun with an Ace folding stock. A few students used a couple different shotguns at various points in the class.

The Winchester took a crap after about 10 shots (it was ejecting live rounds along with empty shells) and Rob let that shooter use one of his Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 shotguns for the remainder of the day. One of the 870s, a 14" police shotgun, had the mag spring shoot downrange during the course. It was returned to service. The 1187 had some functioning problems, I'm unsure of why. The pump gun malfunctions as far as I know were operator induced short strokes. These are the only malfunctions I'm aware of, but there may have been others.

I used a very simple police trade-in Remington 870, with a 12.5" LOP(shortened from the factory length of 13.5" by a friend of mine gratis), gorgeous wood stock and forend, factory recoil pad, 18" bead sighted barrel, a 4 rd mag tube, and a Tactical Tailor 3 point sling. The gun cost me $162.00 before the addition of my extravagant $35.00 sling. After ditching my initial $2.00 nylon carry strap, I am now up to a grand total of $195.00 for this fine, reliable firearm. 870s Rock! The 870 is Rob's preferred shotgun.

I wrote about this gun in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3924
I used a surplus gas mask bag on my left hip as my ammo pouch, and it worked great. I definitely see the need though for a sidesaddle on a tactial shotgun for a place to keep slugs, and will get a 4 round version. A Surefire forend would be nice also, but they add a considerable amount of weight I'm not sure I want and they are more expensive than my gun even cost. I'm completely sold on 3 point slings for long guns, and no long gun of mine will ever go without one.

I'm still on the fence about sights. Rob considers ghostrings to be a compromise of sorts, being almost as fast as a bead, and almost as precise as rifle sights. He has taken the ghost ring rear sight on his 14' Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 and cut the top half off, creating a U-shaped rear sight. I am very impressed with this setup. I was easily able to quickly put 5 full power Winchester slugs in a nice group in the head of an IDPA target at 35 yards offhand with this sight setup. I was unable to do as well with my bead sight setup.

Rob's goal for the day was to safely teach us a SYSTEM of shooting, reloading, managing, and using a tactical shotgun in the most efficient manner possible. He was effective. We started with a safety briefing, a talk about the role and history of the shotgun, and then Rob's approach to controlling the considerable recoil of the 12ga shotgun, which involves stance, and how you hold the shotgun, and how to use the recoil of the shotgun to help you shoot it faster. This alone was worth the price of admission. Rob drives this point home by shooting some ridiculously fast double taps from his 14" Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 with slugs. Folks, you have to see this to believe it. The barrel literally does not move when Rob shoots slugs, he controls the recoil so effectively. Rob isn't one of those instructors who is shy about shooting in front of his students, which is a huge plus in my book. Rob would shoot various drills from his 870s or Benelli, and he had us shaking our heads in disbelief at how smooth and fast he is.

Once we had that down, we moved on to other topics, like ready positions, presenting from the various ready positions, pivots(left, right, behind), reloading, speedloading, slug select, shooting on the move(forward, back, right, left), multiple targets, transitioning to the pistol, ammuntion selection, Rob's unique CQB position, tactical scenarios where different techniques would be appropriate, etc. Rob has an amazing plethora of drills he had us do, and they are an absolute blast, including the Ken Hackathorn inspired "Box Drill". There is very little down time in this class. If you weren't shooting, you were stuffing more ammo into your carriers, hydrating, or listening to Rob lecture. I am going from memory here, so I may have left something out, but trust me it was a ton of information. "If I'm lying, I'm dying".

Speaking of Ken Hackathorn, he was conducting a private handgun/carbine class in the next bay, and dropped in to say hello. Anytime you get to spend some time on the range with Rob and Ken is a good day. They are good people.

Rob, like his colleague Ken, believes in teaching people to operate with loaded weapons in a 360 degree environment, in a safe, tactical manner, and he had us doing so in a manner of about 2 hours, which many of you will realize is pretty impressive. If you can't do it in a controlled environment like a range setting, how do you expect to do it in the real world? "You won't rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training".

Rob uses a portable microphone/speaker system on the range, so you can clearly hear all his range commands. This small point was important to me, as I have been on firing lines so long and noisy that you literally cannot hear what the rangemaster is saying, and that really sucks, let me tell you.

We did not do any weak hand/one hand drills, which I was looking forward to, but we crammed an amazing amount of work into one day, so I can't complain. After experiencing force on force training, where the very real possiblility of taking rounds in a gunfight is driven home, especially in the hands and arms, I believe weak hand/one hand drills should be significant part of every training program.

I highly recommend anyone interested in tactical shotgun training get in touch with Rob and set up a class. He can come to your location, and does not require an elaborate range facility to have a kick ass class. His email address is [email protected].

I apologize in advance for any grammatical/spelling errors.

Dave Williams

 

[TimRB]

"We started with a safety briefing, a talk about the role and history of the shotgun, and then Rob's approach to controlling the considerable recoil of the 12ga shotgun, which involves stance, and how you hold the shotgun, and how to use the recoil of the shotgun to help you shoot it faster. This alone was worth the price of admission. "

Isn't it a pleasure to watch a real expert in action? I took a two-day shotgun class from Walt Marshall in CA. As a demo of how training, and not the gun, makes the gunner, he borrowed a pump gun from one of the students and used it to fire two rounds of buckshot, both hits, far faster than I could have fired an autoloader.

Glad you enjoyed your class. For seventy bucks it's such a bargain that I would just plan on taking it every year or two.

Tim

 

[El Tejon]

Training making the gunner??? That's just crazy talk!

Thanks for the review!

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Dave,

Thanks for the write-up.

Ever since I read his article in Surefire's "Combat Tactics" I've been interested in what his course would be like.

He has made his way out to Camp Pendleton which means that next time he's in CA, I'd like to attend.

$70, huh?

Sounds like a bargain.

Jim

 

[Dave Williams]

Guys,

Thanks for the comments. $70 is indeed a steal.

El Tejon,

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109822&highlight=Thunder+Ranch

This thread of yours on TheFiringLine was one of the reviews I liked that I mentioned above. Thank You.

Dave

 

[Jeff White]

Dave,
Thanks for the review. Sounds like a pretty intense course. 300 rounds is a lot to shoot in a day, even if it is birdshot.

Jeff

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sounds like a great deal and great training. $70 for all that? When is he coming to MD?

Classes like this, BA/UU/R and a good instructor are worth their weight in gold....

 

[Bix]

Dave, thanks again for your review. I agree that such postings are one of the things that make this board (and its predecessor) a wonderful resource - I hope to add some of my own this summer.

You know, I recognized Haught's name but couldn't place it until I read your description of the peculiar sighting system he has on his 870 (I'd seen it in pictures in the Surefire ragazine and taken note - seems pretty clever). Anyway, the article in the magazine (referenced above) was the subject of a small bit of discussion here not too long ago:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79751&highlight=surefire

You sound very pleased with the course overall - I wonder if you could comment specifically about your impression of the "push-pull" technique (I presume it was taught in your course). The article describes it as "revolutionary", a "breakthrough"; obviously such claims breed a little skepticism. Tell us about your first-hand experience, if you would.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Good review. Thanks.
Denny

 

[Dave Williams]

Again,

Thanks for the comments. It's good to be able to give back to a board I've learned so much from.

Bix,

I could have shot full power Winchester slugs out of Rob's 14" 870 all day long using the push pull technique. It is very effective.

However, let me say that I read that same article, and talked to Rob about it, before taking the course. I had tried the push pull technique, as well as the CQB position, myself using full power 00 buck. I had okay results, but not like I did during the class. I think using the birdshot to learn the technique is very beneficial.

Dave Williams

 

[EricO]

Dave, nice review. Thanks for including the equipment lowdown of the participants also. It's always nice to hear that. $70.00 for a one day class is indeed a bargain, especially from someone with Rob's experience. If only he could visit the Bay Area, CA!

Regarding techniques, was there anything drastically different that Rob teaches about loading or slug select drills? For a Rem870? How was the patterning on the various guns/ammo? Anything worth mentioning? Does Rob favor a certain type of ammo and what are his feelings on LE lo-recoil buck and slugs?

TimRB: I've taken a few classes from Walt also, and I still remember this same little demo. He used his "Vang'd" Rem870 and put two in the backstop so fast that he needed to do it twice. Most of us barely recognized that he cycled the forend, it was that fast! It sounds like only 1 shot until you focus completely on it. He's said that he favors the shotgun though! Anyone from the Bay Area could benefit from Walt at www.awt-co.com. His bio is there also - he's also a "been there, done that" kind of guy.

EricO

 

[Dave Williams]

"Regarding techniques, was there anything drastically different that Rob teaches about loading or slug select drills? For a Rem870?"

>For slug select, he teaches to insert a slug in the mag tube, cycle the action, and fire. He likes the +1 mag extension for this reason, keeps the tube loaded with 4 rounds, and there is always room for a slug to be inserted.

For a combat load, he is not a big fan of the run the slide to the rear, access a spare round weakhanded, come under the gun and wipe it into the ejection port method. I have only previously been taught this method, and it is what I was using during the class until he taught us his preferred methods.

For a combat load of a dry gun, he teaches two methods. The first, you mantain your strong hand grip, run the slide to the rear, rotate the gun counterclockwise to that the ejection port is facing up, grab a round with your weakhand, put it in the chamber, close the slide, and fire. The gun stays pretty high up using this method. This is pretty fast.

The next method, you run the slide to the rear, bring the gun down to about mid torso, grab the gun with your weakhand so that your fingers are just under the ejection port, to the rear of the slide and in front of the 4rd sidesaddle(he prefers the 4 round for this very reason, there is no room to do this with a 6rd sidesadde), let go of the gun with your strong hand, access your spare ammo with your strong hand, put the round in the chamber, reaquire the gun with your strong hand, run the slide forward, and fire. For most of us, this method was faster than the first, because we were using our strong hand, I believe, and were more dexterious with it.

He likes to keep 2 rounds up, 2 down, in the sidesaddle to accomodate either loading method. Also, he says to have spare rounds on both sides of your body to accomodate either method.

Learning these methods after having used the traditional methods for the first part of the class drove home how much better they were for me. Everyone was using these techniques, not just the 870 people.


"How was the patterning on the various guns/ammo? Anything worth mentioning?"

>We didn't pattern the guns, but he did talk about it and recommend it for personal guns. He stated it was useless for general issue guns.


"Does Rob favor a certain type of ammo and what are his feelings on LE lo-recoil buck and slugs?"

>He likes the reduced recoil stuff, and mentioned the Remington 8 pellet 00 load specifically, and the reduced recoil Remington slug.

 

[Jeff White]

"Does Rob favor a certain type of ammo and what are his feelings on LE lo-recoil buck and slugs?"

>He likes the reduced recoil stuff, and mentioned the Remington 8 pellet 00 load specifically, and the reduced recoil Remington slug.

What ranges were you using slugs at? There are a lot of reports of inconsistant accuracy of reduced recoil slugs at ranges past 50 yards. Saw it with my own eyes in Louis Awerbuck's Stage 1 Shotgun course. It didn't seem to matter 50 yards and closer though.

Jeff

 

[Dave Williams]

I forgot to mention that I spoke with one of my classmates yesterday, and I made some errors in the malfunction run down above. The Winchester 1300 was continually double feeding, and was pulled from service. And the 14" 870 was using a mag cap from an 1187, pirated at the last minute to make the class, which may explain why it shot downrange.

Dave

 

[Dave Williams]

We only shot slugs at 35yds. I have heard the same about the low recoil slugs. I used all full power stuff with no discomfort. Remington claims the low recoil stuff shoots 1.5" low at 100 yds.

I have corresponded with Louis about some of my dept's shotgun issues, he's a great guy. I'd like to take his class, too.

Dave

 

[Dave McCracken]

This is what I like about this BB. Realistic info. Thanks to Dave W, all of us have a better idea of some techniques, and a critique of an instructor that may help us determine where to learn and with whom.

Huzzah!!

 

[EricO]

Dave, you wrote, "The next method, you run the slide to the rear, bring the gun down to about mid torso, grab the gun with your weakhand so that your fingers are just under the ejection port, to the rear of the slide and in front of the 4rd sidesaddle(he prefers the 4 round for this very reason, there is no room to do this with a 6rd sidesadde), let go of the gun with your strong hand, access your spare ammo with your strong hand, put the round in the chamber, reaquire the gun with your strong hand, run the slide forward, and fire."

- This sounds similar to what Mas Ayoob shows in his Stressfire Shotgun book, and also what I've seen IPSC (I know we're not interested in this though) types using, especially when using those shell speedloaders. Ayoob's book shows him using what he calls a "pincer" grip to grab two shells at a time to bring to the loading port, speeding up the load. I tried combining both this method and the method you said you were previously only taught, and merely ended up confusing myself! :banghead: For me, it's a simple lesson of "keep it simple, stupid!" With ammo on both sides, and two choices, it became confusing under stress and I returned to using my previously taught method, which I learned from both a Gunsite shotgun video, and Walt (www.awt-co.com). In another shotgun post on this forum a Benelli user and IPSC shooter shows a nice pic sequence of his tech of bringing 3 shells at a time to the loading port! I'll stick with what I know at this time. I use the underneath "swipe" fairly well, and can do it by feel alone. Turning the port over to see is a good one also.

A good drill Walt had us do to learn ammo management, movement, and slug select was the following. We would start out at contact distance and move slowly backward, as if we were covering a hallway in retreat. A command would be given at any time to - 2 center mass/1 COM/etc, and then we would load what we shot immediately. We would never stop moving slowly backwards. Eventually we would get to the distance where each ind. knew that he could no longer keep all 00 pellets on the target and would have to do a slug select should the command be given to fire. All would do this by themselves, managing their own ammo. At a certain distance our movement would be reversed, back to contact distance. A good drill, and killer on the wrists of those without pistol grip full stocks and heavy, laden shotguns. Keeping a loaded, ext. mag equipped shotgun with other access also, up on target during many repititions of this drill would give you a cramp in your wrist. Fun though.

Thanks again for the info Dave.
EricO

 

[Dave Williams]

well,

I have the Ayoob shotgun book also, and have read it a couple times, and I'll be damned that technique is there. I guess I never paid attention to it.

Both these guys have competition backgrounds, so that's probably where the reload came from. I have no problem with that. Say what you want about IPSC, but those 3-gun guys can shoot and reload pretty damn good. There is a reason the nation's top tactical teams have had instruction from IPSC GMs and top 3gun shooters.

The drill you mention Walt doing sounds similar to one we did. You can start with any number of rounds in the gun, we started with 4. On command, start moving forward. Fire on command while moving, then start moving backward. Fire on command while moving, then start moving forward again. Reload when you can. Your goal is to never run dry, while he's trying to force you to go dry. Very tough drill. I cheated by holding rounds between my weakhand fingers, like an African hunter with a double gun.

Dave