Rock River AR 15

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I'd cancel the order if I were you. It's silly to have to wait that long for a standard AR. Just find one from someone else. Maybe a Charles Daly.
 
I too had a bad experience with RR. I ordered an upper that had chamber problems. I thought I had it fixed by polishing it, and posted so on here, but alas the trouble returned. I still use it for plinking and burning off ammo but it is not reliable and I would not use it in a situation where a FTE due to stuck case would place me in jeopardy. I think it may actually be a .223 chamber rather than 5.56. The barrel is not marked. Anyway, I would not purchase again. .02


I.C.
 
Funny, I had my RRA mid length upper in less than 7 days after I ordered it....interesting
Since then, I have put together a CMMG 9mm and a DPMS 7.62 X 39 -- all have been reliable companions ;)
 
Hi I.C.

"I ordered an upper that had chamber problems."

Any reason why you did not return it to RRA under warranty? They have a lifetime warranty.

Daniel
Austin, Texas
 
Well, let me ask you this..... Did you read the report that HK handguards reach 750 degrees F in only 90 rounds on semi-auto? Probably not because HK doesn't want you to. You think they dunk them in water to show how tough they are? You can do that with a normal AR. Did you read how the 416 self destructs in the lab after about 7k rounds? Probably not. What about that recent, very extensive testing has shown all of the current types of piston uppers are showing the same type of problems that they did 30 years ago when they tried this crap? Did you know CAG were such huge fans of the guns because they got new uppers every 3-5k rounds and thats why they wanted to keep them? Why not? Because it doesn't sell magazines or products.

Did you read how SIG has two different production lines? One is for civilians and the other is for high use LEO/MIL customers, their being made to a much higher standard?

What about how Glocks in use by Federal Agencies in 40 cal tend to blow up with alarming frequency? Go to any armsroom at any FLETC and ask the armorers to see the buckets of glocks that have gone up.

So do you really think the DEA would put out a white paper advertising this, or that RRA would? Just because I am not going to reveal my sources under any circumstances does not mean they aren't true. But the companies know that I am dead on the money. And those who know me know where I get my info from and what my background is. They also know I bust jibblies of every one of these substandard manufacturers at the trade shows. And they also know that I am happy to slaps some gauges on any of these products and compair them to the mil requirments any time. In most cases I already have they just dont meet the basic standards.
 
I would tend to agree with the poster above that at least puts RRA above DPMS.

As to the wait times, everyone else hit the nail on the head, don't order direct from RRA. Ever.
 
PvtPyle,

No disrespect intended, but "I'm in the know" does nothing to support your assertions. Your statments about Rock River contradict my own personal experience along with the experience of folks I know personally and everything I have read about them. "I'm in the know" doesn't fly well on the internet. It also does not fly well in the judicial system, corporate structures, the military or any other place I have knowledge of.

Adding additional unsupported and unrelated statements to bolster your argument also does nothing to support your position. I have nothing against moderators having strong opinions on the forum, but I really would expect more from moderators on this forum specifically.

If you have some support that you could provide for your position, I will be delighted to take a look at it and learn what I can from it. If not, then your post is simply unsubstatiated opinion at best.

Daniel
Austin, Texas
 
PvtPyle: I have been an amour for several years (military and civilian) and have seen nothing about RRA that would lead me to believe that they were not a good product. I agree the wait is just stupid, but the product is sound.
I have had access to the .mil documents and still have not seen any reports like that. I am currently working with a company that does contract work for military and civilians for overseas jobs and they have not heard anything like what your talking about (they deal with RRA, Colt, Bushmaster for all AR needs).
If you are going to come in hear and bash a product, please have proof of your claim or let it go. Do not bash those that doubt you because you brag about your secret squirrel job on the internet. There are a lot of Internet Special Forces Units out there doing the same thing. Look at both sides of the argument, and think about which you would believe. A person claiming to be knowledgeable or one who can prove he is. If you are aware and cannot state your sources (due to security concerns), then you should never have even mentioned it. That alone is a security violation. PM me if you want to discuss further.
 
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RRA does not use milspec buffer tubes instead they use a cheap Chinese knock off. I have had to replace trigger sets because they failed (most shooters dont know how to use a 2 stage trigger and it makes about as much sense on a battle rifle as teats on a steer so it is wasted on the average shooters).
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Please, send me your failed RRA NM two-stage trigger sets. I can have them up and running again, better than stock, in about 10-15 minutes. The RRA NM two-stage has a reputation for losing it's first stage within about 1000 rounds. This does not compromise it's function however it just makes them single stage triggers.
This is easily remedied. Newer NM triggers are better but can still benefit from moding prior to installment.

So do you really think the DEA would put out a white paper advertising this, or that RRA would? Just because I am not going to reveal my sources under any circumstances does not mean they aren't true. But the companies know that I am dead on the money. And those who know me know where I get my info from and what my background is. They also know I bust jibblies of every one of these substandard manufacturers at the trade shows. And they also know that I am happy to slaps some gauges on any of these products and compair them to the mil requirments any time. In most cases I already have they just dont meet the basic standards.
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While I wouldn't disagree with alot of what you've stated, I think not naming your sources really goes along way to discrediting your arguments.

You can slap gauges on just about any firearm I handled while in the military. I'm sure most of them were out of spec. and I can tell you from first hand experience most were rattle traps or "loosey goosey". Function and reliability are what we're after, not conformance to a blueprint.
I agree about the "buffer tube" as you refer to it or better yet the "receiver extension" as it's commonly refered to. Some of the RRA receiver extensions I have dealt with are crap. I have put "mil-spec" buttstocks on some and have not had any problems. They are really inconsistent.

I don't think RRA ARs are garbage as a whole. I have been out to their factory and they are pretty much just assemblers. They buy parts from "real" manufacturers and slap them together, just like alot of other so-called manufacturers.
 
PvtPyle: I have been an armour for several years (military and civilian) and have seen nothing about what your talking about in regard to RRA. I agree the wait is just stupid, but the product is sound. I have access to the .mil documents as well and still have not seen any reports like that. I also work closely with a company that does contract work for military and civilians for overseas jobs and they too have not heard what your talking about (they deal with RRA, Colt, Bushmaster for all AR needs) when they heard about your comments. If your going to come in hear and bash a product, please have proof of your claim or let it go. Don't bash those that doubt you because you brag about your secret squirrel job on the internet. There are a lot of Internet Special Forces Units out there doing the same thing. Look at both sides of the argument and think about which you would believe. A guy claiming to be knowledgable or one who can prove he is. If you are in the know and cannot reviel your sources (due to security concerns) of information, then you should never have even said a word since that is a violation in itself. PM me if you want to discuss further.
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I do understand some of your points but it's difficult to get them across when they're a little difficult to read.
I do like your line of "Internet Special Forces". I however do deal with military personel quite frequently as I do ship to APOs.
 
tcrocker,
Spoke to Pete at AR sales a month ago, and he said 4-6 weeks. Two weeks ago he said 8-11 weeks. There's a seller on Gunbroker who had/has RR competition Service Rifles in stock. got mine a couple of weeks ago and it arrive promptly. There hadn't been any bids and he kept relisting, so I put in a minimum amount. The end price was cheaper than retail, but more than the hard-to-find best deals.

My gas key will have to be restaked, as none of the punches reached the bolt head.
 
Also keep in mind folks that most of the uppers are all made by the same forge (Cardinal if I recall correctly?) so you're getting similar products if it has a Deer, or a Snake, or whathaveyou on the side. The barrel and bolt make the difference.

As for waiting 10 weeks for an Upper? I'd honestly just go find a lightly used one somewhere and rebuild it to my specs in those 10 weeks, for probably the same price. Just keep in mind there are other options.
 
I spent 5 years as an Armorer for the 1/19th SFG(A) here in Utah. It is no secret and not exactly a violation of persec as I have been on the news talking about my job and our deployment, and it is well know in our area. And now my now my wife and I speak to return soldier and their families in the western US. As for it getting out there, it's way too late. I'm not concerned with it and neither is my COC.

As for my statements about RRA, if you are a 45B20 and not a 92Y and have the gauges to slap on one, do so. Dont take my work for it, or anyone elses. You will also need the Army TM 8-1006-318-23&P and you can get the EB/4081/C06/1515 Engineering Document from somewhere on the net and look it over. If you have M4's in your unit you should have it anyway since it directly addresses functionality issues with the M4.

So take the manuals and start checking torqe specs on the carrier key bolts. Also check the diagram showing proper and improper stake jobs. The metal is supposed to dimple the bolts, not just come in contact with it. The proper way uses the same dimple across both.

Now lets move to the barrel and you will need your torque wrench again. Pop the delta ring off. How much force did THAT take?

And finally, my favorite, loosen that castle nut. Now if your gun was made in the last few years you will need a replacement castle nut and probably the tube as well. They can not stake the ring to the receiver back plate because they use MIM. If they staked it the castle nut would crack. Chances are when you take it off the ring will shatter of it will turn the entire tube stripping the threads on the buffer tube. It does that because they use locktite. That is crap. Lazy and cheap.

Look, if you are happy with your RRA that is great. It will probably serve you quite well. But for high use customers I hate to see someone buy something for a hundred dollars more than another better built product.

As far as the "I'm in the know", well ok. I can accept that. But I'm not going to loose sleep over it. Ask around. There are plenty of people here and at other boards that know I am not blowing smoke. As do my customers here. But I have been doing this for a few days and I am perfectly to happy to throw gauges on their guns at SHOT or any other show and see how they stack up. IF they would let me.

If all you get your info from is trade rags, then I can understand why you have not seen a bad review. Bad reviews dont sell advertising, and RRA spends a TON on advertising. But good advertising does not equal good product. You need to get out there and try to find reports from some of the Federal Agencies. Because of our close proximity with several of the Federal Armorers and Agencies, we get to talk shop with them at shows and courses. Our staff has several LEO's on staff and a significant number of 18 series guys. Word gets around rather quickly when something goes wrong just like in everything in life. If you are military and have M4's, you should try to cultivate relationships with the civilian armorers at Bragg and Crane. Get on ATTARs and see what courses that are out there that may let you attend even if you aren't a SOCCOM asset. Thats where you get to know people and get info from behind the curtain.


So for everyone else, take it for what its worth. I have not stake in this, I'm not the one selling you the gun. I dont really care what you buy and dont get all butt hurt if you dont like the same product as me. But I hate to see people spend more money on an infreior product.
 
Wow, this has moved way off topic and has turned into some kind of pissing contest.

Nothing if anything to do with the OP. :)

As far as shows go they are a world apart from the field.

Speaking of parts composition and manufacturig techniques there are probably a dozen or so companies out there that make "commercial" ARs as opposed to "mil-spec" ARs. So let's not just pick on RRA.

Don't get your info from magazines or shows. Talk to people in the field that use them in the field, military, LE or otherwise.
 
No, it has drifted slightly. You ask what my bonafides were and I gave them to you.

You ask what my sources were for my comments, and I gave you some hard facts that you can test yourself, use the manuals and gauges to see for yourself while I gave you some of where I get my info from. And it isn't the trade mags.

I told you where the RRA products were inferior, and I agree. You can ask the end users. Here in the US it is Colt, other countries use the DPMS and BM guns, but the only people thata were using RRA have stopped because of QC issues. Take it or leave it. I gave you the manuals where you could find the correct measurements and specs, I told you what to check to back up my claims that they build and infreior product. The other manufacturers I listed build them as close as they can to MILSPEC and use better components. And there are no companies out there that make MILSPEC AR's for the civilian community. Period. They can't because of the 86 ban. MILSPEC requires select fire. But some come mighty close. Colt is by far the closest.

You ask, I responded. I bet you sell them so you have an emotional and financial stake in this. If they made a product that I thought was of the quality for the dollar, I would still carry them. We did carry them until the started cutting corners. YMMV, but that is just my .02
 
DPMS though? C'mon. Credibility goes out the window when anyone recommends DPMS. They do everything wrong that RRA does and then some.
 
PvtPyle

Thank you very much for your opinion, which you are entitled to.

For me, and this is the part that is my opinion, I could care less about measurements as long as I have parts interchangebility (which I have), reliability (which I have) and accuracy (which I have in spades).

My feeling is that you have an axe to grind beyond your minimally supported blanket statements. You can claim to be anyone you want to be. You can claim that "people that know me" know you are an expert. So far, I have not seen anyone posting here that "knows you" apparently.

I own one. I shoot with guys that own them. I know guys that sell them by the crate and love them because their customers are happy. My guess is that they are backed up for 8-10 weeks for a pretty good reason. They sell a ton of rifles. Probably based on their reputation. This is their reputation with me through my own personal experience.
Not a single problem.
Accurate as all heck.
Excellent fit and finish.
This is where my personal opinion is coming from.

At this point, its a credibility thing with me. I have seen nothing to really support your earlier posts, just a lot of redirection and quite a hangup on measuring things. Guns are for shootin'. Mine does just fine.

Daniel
One very satisfied customer.
Austin, Texas
 
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ProCarryNAustin: Well said! Getting on the "net" and referencing credentials that are unsubstantiated (and even if substantiated are wholly unrelated to the topic at hand) compromises one's credibility. The op apparently wants to know why Rock River is so slow in delivering a rifle he either ordered or is considering ordering. He wasn't soliciting a rant from "expert" armorers about how foolish his choice of an AR manufacturer was/is.

I'm a competitor in the Service Rifle matches at Camp Perry. If you really want to know how good or bad an AR15 maker is go there and ask around. Real expert advice can be had there for free and won't include silly and meaningless hyperbole that attempts to demean any given manufacturer for apparent parochial purposes.
 
No, it has drifted slightly. You ask what my bonafides were and I gave them to you.

You ask what my sources were for my comments, and I gave you some hard facts that you can test yourself, use the manuals and gauges to see for yourself while I gave you some of where I get my info from. And it isn't the trade mags.

I told you where the RRA products were inferior, and I agree. You can ask the end users. Here in the US it is Colt, other countries use the DPMS and BM guns, but the only people thata were using RRA have stopped because of QC issues. Take it or leave it. I gave you the manuals where you could find the correct measurements and specs, I told you what to check to back up my claims that they build and infreior product. The other manufacturers I listed build them as close as they can to MILSPEC and use better components. And there are no companies out there that make MILSPEC AR's for the civilian community. Period. They can't because of the 86 ban. MILSPEC requires select fire. But some come mighty close. Colt is by far the closest.

You ask, I responded. I bet you sell them so you have an emotional and financial stake in this. If they made a product that I thought was of the quality for the dollar, I would still carry them. We did carry them until the started cutting corners. YMMV, but that is just my .02
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I didn't ask you anything, you have me confused with someone else. Again, I'm not really interested in measurements or specifications. Function, reliability and accuracy, in about that order.

I think when I or anyone else uses the term "mil-spec" it's a given we're not talking about full auto per se.

Ha, ha. No, I don't sell RRA. Sure, if someone is deadset on one and after I've tried to point them in the right direction if they still want one I'll order them one. Certainly no emotional "stake" in this discussion concerning RRA.
I wouldn't not have stated that I have been to their factory and that they are at best assemblers.
I'm not the one who appears to be emotional at all. I don't know why you're addressing me directly or appear to be doing so.
I think you should check your ego at the door, you're barking up the wrong tree here. I think we're mostly on the same page.
 
There are better products then RRA and worse. If the wait is worth it, then do it. If you must have it now, then shop around. No matter what you decide I am sure you will be happy with your purchase. The RRA I bought is a sound product. I waited 8 weeks. Mine is used for hunting. My work rifle is something different, but that is another topic. In this case you need to decide if the wait is worth it. I wish you the best on your decision.
 
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