Rock River AR15 Question

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4Freedom

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What would you pay now for a new Rock River AR15 in the box? How many people think if I Rock River now, the price go up in 6 months?
I am seeing some good deals around I think. I called Rock River and they told me the wait for a new gun is ove 1+ year. People also tell me ROck Rivers make the best quality AR15s on the market.

I am seeing some Rock River AR15s, like Tactials and Carbine A2/A4's for around $1000-$1200. About $100-$300 more than the retail price. Does anuyone think these are good deals for brand new ones?

Also, in a SHTF situation, would a 5.56 really be useful versus a 7.62 x 39 or .308? I have talked to some people who just tell me 5.56's are toys and that they would never use them if their life was in danger in a battle situation. Rather, thye would go for bigger caliber. However, others told me the .223 with fragmenting type bullets are more accurate and as damaging as higher caliber bullets.

I was weighing get an AK, but I don't feel comfortable spending as much as a Rock River, which I know is good gun. Also, I have another AR15 and it would be nice to share the mags and ammo as well; rather than having to invest in an entire different caliber.
 
Well, prices are pretty inflated right now but 1000 isn't a bad price at all given the current situation. There are people that will rail against 5.56 as 7.62x39 and .308 offer greater energy. But, here's the way I see it... American soldiers have been using 5.56 for half a century. If it wasn't effective I think we'd have switched by now. I've never shot another person so I can't speak from personal experience, but if it's good enough for our soldiers, it's good enough for me.

Where are you seeing these RRA's for 1000-1200 by the way?
 
Hi, I just bought myself a brand new upgraded Rock River Arms Tac Carbine A4. It has the detachable tactical carry handle and chromel lined barrel. I got it for $1250 + $25.00 shipping. The guy seems to have some but they seem to go quick. He just put the auction up earlier today.

I see he has another one, an Entry Tactical, for buy it now of $1300. That one is also upgraded with chrome lined barrel and detachable carry handle. It has No Reserve Bid of $350.00.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=119789242

Well, I think I did ok , seeing that the retail price for the gun I bought is $1080.00. I am sure a dealer may have been able to get it for a little less ,once upon a time.

This is the gun I just bought
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=218


THis is my final black rifle :D I am happy its over with. I have a nice collection now.. Two DPMS ARS (1 .308 and 1 Sportical 5.56) and now a new Rock River.

I guess I will just kiss AK good bye. If I happen to find a real cheap used one at a gun show maybe I'll get it. Maybe not. AKs are more pain than they are worth now. At least with an AR you can still get more of your money's worth.
 
I have talked to some people who just tell me 5.56's are toys and that they would never use them if their life was in danger in a battle situation.
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That must be some kind of joke. The 5.56mm has been holding freedom's enemies at bay for 50 years or so. Now isn't the time to buy a AR unless you absolutely need one. Both rifles and the ammo are inflated. I would wait 12 months or so.
 
I have talked to some people Frankly, if you think that's true, go with the AK. Confidence is key if you have to use it. :)
 
I don't think its true, thats why I just bought me a Rock River ;) :D:D

I think some people just love their guns and will knock whatever they don't own or know about.

Well, I think I got a good deal on my new Rock River.. I paid $1250 for it brand new, with upgraded options. I think if I spend $1000 for a modified Saiga I would have had an inferior gun. Even the Yugos and Bulgarians are outrageous in price. I mean is it really worth paying $1500 for an Arsenal Bulgarian AK47, when yo u can get a high quality AR for cheaper? I was told even top brand AKs don't have the accuracy and precision of ARs. Also, as for durability I have heard ARs like DPMS and Rock River have little problems with malfuncitons. And how often will you be dragging your rifle through the mud anyway?

Also, in close range combat is a 5.56 in hollow point or a hunting grade type round really less effective than 7.62 x 39 round? I would think with the better accuracy of AR, that it would have advantage in close range combat.

Well , I am sure I will hear some AK fans chew me out.. But, I couldn't see any justification for spending an equal amount on a good AK as on a Rock River AR. I mean even the Romanian WASRs are going for like $600, half the price of the Rock River I bought.
 
People on various message boards, as well as various gun dealers, etc.. LOL. I have said many times I am a newbie, so I just learn from word of mouth. I am yet to gain my own experience. I have talked with many types of people and have many types of answers. Well, I am doing my best to learn right from wrong.
 
BOth works in real combat. Both can kill and penetrate well. I personally would go with the AK 47 which Im familiar with in the past 7 yrs.
 
4Freedom, it's good to ask questions, just make sure you get people to qualify their opinions. Way too many people talk well outside their lane and above their pay grade. Internet forums are often the worst for this as people are not required to qualify their opinions and generally only post based on limited (sample size of one or two) experiences.

I think you'll be fine with the 5.56, I really do. I've killed two hogs with 5.56 and watched a third get dropped with it, as well as a fourth that went down to 7.62x39. A person ain't a hog, but I was suitably impressed with the performance of the 5.56 rounds.
 
.223 is a fine caliber for civilian defensive purposes. Most of the complaints against it have been from the military side, regarding soldiers shooting 62-grain FMJ out of short 14.5" barrels. But civilians aren't limited to FMJ, and a civilian-length 16" barrel gives a bit more muzzle velocity than a 14.5" military M4.

Rock Rivers are fine guns. They use a bit heavier barrel than some other manufacturers,which adds some weight up front but may make it a little more accurate than your average AR (and the average AR is already an accurate gun). I've had opportunity to shoot a 16" Rock River and a few other brands, and the Rock River trigger is one of the nicest trigger pulls you'll find on an AR. It was a little heavier in the nose than the DPMS and Oly Arms carbines I shot, but not bad (it's still not a particularly heavy gun).

As far as quality, RRA fit and finish is first rate, but not all the parts are true milspec. For civilian use, that probably doesn't really matter, unless you'll be getting the rifle smoking hot in carbine classes or whatever. They have a pretty good reputation. If you want true milspec parts, you would be looking at a Colt, LMT, CMMG, etc. but in the present climate you will be paying $1500-$2000 for one of those.

If I were ordering a new RRA, I'd specify the chrome-lined barrel ($40 extra last time I looked), and would probably get a flattop with either a removable carry handle, RRA's "tactical carry handle," or fold-down sights, because you may want to add optics later.
 
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People on various message boards, as well as various gun dealers, etc.. LOL. I have said many times I am a newbie, so I just learn from word of mouth. I am yet to gain my own experience. I have talked with many types of people and have many types of answers. Well, I am doing my best to learn right from wrong.
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4Freedom,

This has been discussed a lot around here lately. I would point you to the threads discussing it but most of them have been deleted.

You will gets LOTS of opinions on this subject, but as rob_s pointed out above, not all of them will be qualified opinions.

I was a newbie too not long ago asking the same questions. Other than the experience I have had (which is negligible compared to some) I dont really have a QUALIFIED opinion other than a whole lot of research into this area. If I were you and I REALLY wanted to know more about the reliability of different AR's, I would start by visiting the site rob_s has in his signature and reading everything in it. Then I would try to figure out who is seeing enough rifles and using them hard enough to see which ones fail most often with hard use. I think Pat Rogers is an EXCELLENT resource in this regard.

FWIW, I too prefer the AR to the AK. They are indeed more accurate and the ergonomics are far superior. Those who make the point that the 5.56 round does not contain the power of the x39 or x51 are no doubt correct, but 1 single round of 5.56 will do the job most of the time, and when it doesnt follow-up shots are quick and accurate. Is more power better? Yes. Is being able to carry more ammo and have less recoil better? Yes. There are pros and cons to each argument, personally I think the 5.56 does the job well enough and I like the extra capacity/amount that can be carried/fast follow-up shots because of less recoil that the AR offers.

Besides, you have that DPMS 308 if you really need some extra "oomph".

Finally, you chose well to get the chrome-lined barrel upgrade if reliability is a big concern, as it does enhance reliability. There are several other options on AR's that can also enhance reliability. Read Bartholomew Roberts post on "34 Ways To Cut Corners on Manufacturing an AR-15" for more information if you are interested. You will find that rob_s has compiled some information that shows which manufacturers cut the least of these corners as applicable to a fighting rifle where reliability is the #1 concern.

Rock River makes a nice rifle which is among the best in "fit and finish" and is probably very accurate. They are probably among the best in this regard. They are not among the top manufacturers as far as including the milspec demands for greatest reliability, but it may be reliable enough for your needs, as you say you will probably not be dragging the rifle through the mud. If you are concerned about this though, these differences are something worth looking into.
 
Odd that you guys are seeing such bad prices on AKs in your area. Shooters express in Belmont NC has new Yugo Aks for under 600, with some Bulgarians with all black furniture for around 700 to 800.
Saw a few Saigas when I went yesterday to get mags for my .223 and get it dialed in, and they were under 600!
Then again, my dad told me that the guy who owns a gunshop back home (in the mountians of WNC) sold a lady an AK... not sure if it was a Krebs or what... for 1700 and she didn't even bat an eyelash at the price.
I paid 900 for my R15 and 1100 for my MP15...
 
Well, I have been reading so many good things about Rock River on various websites and message boards that I decided to fork out the money to buy one. I just bought one yesterday for $1250+ 25 shipping. My local FFL dealer also won't charge me sales tax, which helps a bit. Yeah, I am sure many will say I am jacked, but I really didn't want to wait a year for a brand new AR. This person was selling an upgraded spec Rock River Tactical Car A4 that has chrome lined barrel and removeable tactical carry handle. Well, I am not sure if people think I got a good or bad deal, but I think I did ok since the retail price on Rock River website is $1080 for this spec of a rifle. I am sure a gun dealer could have gotten for me even a bit cheaper than that prior to the election.

Here, is the gun I just bought:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=119788949

As for Colts, well many have said to avoid them and that they are prone to lot of problems. I am now hearing some say they are the best ARs? What is with the difference in opinion? I am aware not all opinions are qualified, but when your a newbie, you just tend to give the more experienced shooter the benefit of the doubt. I have been weighing in all the different opinions. Its tough for me, hearing so much conflicting info and not having enough of my own personal knowledge and experience.

I agree with you on the subject of accuracy vs. power. I think I am getting more for my money buying my upgraded Rock River at $1250 instead of a $600 Saiga that needs a conversion, which will beefed it up even more. Also, I was told if you use hollow point or match grade type of ammo, the power of your .223 when hitting a target is increased. Some have told me an expanding type of .223 round is more deadly than a 7.62 x 39 FMJ. Also, in a real SHTF situation, you want a gun that will work at mid range to close range. With an AK, you are stuck mostly in close range. At close range, is it really a big deal if you get hit with 5.56 or 7.62, since most hits with a rifle at close range I would think would be pretty lethal.

When you say Rock River is not mil spec, does it mean it is not as durable? Do you feel Rock Rivers are more fragile/less reliable than Colts?

Well, if I really hate it. I think at the price I paid I could sell it back and not lose much money, but I have not read of too many people hating these guns; most people seem to think they are highly accurate and reliable.
 
you own it now, shoot it and tell us if its reliable, well built, and accurate.

if it performs to your expectations and needs, dont worry about what folks say about it, even the ones that say they are qualified to tell you about your rifle.
 
A friend of mine has a second-hand RRA AR-15; He's put tons of rounds through it no problems. I don't anticipate you'll have an issue with yours.

As for the classic AK vs. AR debate--I dropped my DPMS in knee-deep snow today, submerging it completely, with the dust-cover open; I knocked the barrel against the sole of my boot a few times and proceeded to put 120 rounds through it without a hiccup.

The first shot did produce a VERY cold shower though. ;)
 
Well, I have been reading so many good things about Rock River on various websites and message boards that I decided to fork out the money to buy one. I just bought one yesterday for $1250+ 25 shipping. My local FFL dealer also won't charge me sales tax, which helps a bit. Yeah, I am sure many will say I am jacked, but I really didn't want to wait a year for a brand new AR.
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I dont blame you for that, I wouldnt wait a year either, especially with the current political climate.

As for Colts, well many have said to avoid them and that they are prone to lot of problems.
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I believe there is a big difference between the milspec carbines that Colt produces for the military/LE marked, and their other lines. The milspec carbines that are marked Law Enforcement are the ones that are designed to meet the specs discussed.

Here, is the gun I just bought:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=119788949
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Nice looking carbine. A lot of people really like that trigger too, the regular trigger that most AR's ship with is kind of gritty.

What is with the difference in opinion? I am aware not all opinions are qualified, but when your a newbie, you just tend to give the more experienced shooter the benefit of the doubt. I have been weighing in all the different opinions. Its tough for me, hearing so much conflicting info and not having enough of my own personal knowledge and experience.
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This is the big question. I could give you the results of the research that I have done and my own real world experience, but neither is that special. Pat Rogers is a very well known name in the AR-15 community. He teaches dozens of AR-15 classes each year, and sees thousands of carbines come through his courses each year. He has seen a LOT of different rifles come through and experience failures in hard use. He also writes regularly for SWAT magazine. He has been very generous about sharing the results of his experience, which is invaluable for guys like you and me.

I would start by reading this long Q&A thread where he answers a lot of questions regarding carbine reliability.

It is long but the info in there is great for folks who seriously want to learn about this. The bottom line you will gather from this is that his experience has taught him that the features mentioned by Bartholomew Roberts in his article, and then described in more detail and shown by rob_s in his chart and accompanying descriptions, tend to make a big difference in the reliability and durability when being used hard.

Colt is certainly a benchmark brand that others are measured by, and their rifles are milspec quality that dont cut these corners. However, there are other brands that are as good or very close to it (or even better?) for less money. MOST people will agree that Noveske makes the best rifle available, but theirs tend to be even more expensive than Colt.

Other companies such as LMT and BCM have a reputation for using just as high quality parts as Colt, and their quality control may even be better. Both of those brands are available for about the same price or less than what you paid for your Rock River. Others such as Sabre Defense and Charles Daly make rifles that are much closer to milspec than most other brands, and are available at great prices. In my case, I bought a Sabre Defense rifle and replaced the complete BCG with one from LMT and the buffer with an H buffer and voila!
 
Other companies such as LMT and BCM have a reputation for using just as high quality parts as Colt, and their quality control may even be better. Both of those brands are available for about the same price or less than what you paid for your Rock River. Others such as Sabre Defense and Charles Daly make rifles that are much closer to milspec than most other brands, and are available at great prices. In my case, I bought a Sabre Defense rifle and replaced the complete BCG with one from LMT and the buffer with an H buffer and voila!
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Oh .. too bad.. I wish I would have researched more about those other companies before I push the buy button, but oh well. It looked like one of the better deals I could find, since a lot of guns on gun broker or just outrageously priced. I was told by some gun makers, one being my gunsmith, the other by rifle manufacturer named Rat Worx, that Rock River uses the same major parts of as Colt. I suppose I paid a bit much, but it was only $150-$200 above retail. I was having trouble finding any good deals on ARs, whatsoever. However, I neglected to search out other brands.

Well, maybe if I hate my Rock River or DPMS I can sell it in next few months and save up for better brand. Still, there is so many people I talk to who swear by their RRA and tell me Colt is an inferior gun. Maybe they are not using the higher end Colts.
 
good luck with your new rifle.

i think you will really enjoy it.


p.s. try it before you sell it.
 
you own it now, shoot it and tell us if its reliable, well built, and accurate.

if it performs to your expectations and needs, dont worry about what folks say about it, even the ones that say they are qualified to tell you about your rifle.
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A great point that always seems to get ignored.
 
Other than the question way back in the original post (the SHTF scenario), there hasn't been much discussion on the PURPOSE of this rifle. Oh, yeah... what to get at this price point.

Seriously - the whole accuracy vs. stopping power vs. mag capacity should all be secondary to the intended purpose, which as I mentioned was never even addressed.

Home defense? The difference in accuracy in AK vs. AR really doesn't matter. A 2 to 3-inch group at 15 - 20 ft should dissuade if not stop an invader. A kill at 50-yds will be hard to defend in court.

NRA hi-power matches? Yeah, the difference in accuracy between AR model A vs. AR model B could be a determining factor, as well as trigger / barrel / sights, etc.

Anyway - there's a lot of knowledge and experience being shared here. This time, a lot of answers to the question not asked.
 
Rock River Arms is a good AR-15 brand. I've had my Entry Tactical for almost two years now. It is a great performer and accurate. You got a resonable price especially with all the panic buying going on now. Just buy some ammo and magazines (if you can find magazines) and go shooting.
 
Still, there is so many people I talk to who swear by their RRA and tell me Colt is an inferior gun. Maybe they are not using the higher end Colts.
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Try to remember that most people dole out advice for self-serving purposes, not to actually help you, based largely on validating their own choices, and that said advice is most often based on experience with a single sample size.

that's why I told you, basically, to be careful who you listen to, make sure that everyone giving you advice qualifies their opinion, and that you educate yourself so that you can make your own choices instead of listening to everyone else so much. What you should be asking people for is fact not opinion. With fact you can formulate your own opinion.

This is, truly, the purpose of the Chart that everyone hates so much, and the reason that the link to it takes you first to the Explanation of Features and not the Chart itself. Read the explanation of features, learn what each of them are and what they mean, and which ones you think you might want or need, and THEN take a look at the Chart to figure out which make/model offers those features.
 
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