Yeah, but all a patent does is give the holder the right to sue for infringement. All the defendant has to do is show that the patent is invalid due to prior art, obviousness, etc. Even if the defendant loses, all the patent holder can recover is costs plus a royalty for past infringement plus an injunction against further use. All of that makes anybody bothering to license Seecamp's patent a bit surprising. A weak patent is just a nuisance to get a license and royalty fee, IMO.
Rohrbaugh News 3/11/03
- Thread starter Blackhawk
- Start date
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JohnBT
Member
I had to go look it up. Interesting that no one had thought it up before. They came close, but never solved the problem of restricted space.
For anyone else who is curious about the Seecamp tandem spring patent, follow the link to the list and scroll down to Seecamp and open the 10-page Adobe Acrobat document...lots of details and drawings. JT
www.biggerhammer.net/patents
For anyone else who is curious about the Seecamp tandem spring patent, follow the link to the list and scroll down to Seecamp and open the 10-page Adobe Acrobat document...lots of details and drawings. JT
www.biggerhammer.net/patents
Quote:
"And you would pay more, harrydog.
What do you think the advantages of Ti or Sc over Al would be anyway?"
Yes, I said I'd be willing to pay more.
The main advantage of titanium over aluminum is, much greater fatigue strength. Aluminum will eventually develop cracks and fail, if it is shot enough. Granted, a small gun like this might not ever have that many rounds through it, but on the other hand, maybe it would. 17-4 stainless steel was specified because it has considerably greater strength than the usual 416 stainless. It's more difficult to machine, so it was a conscious decision to use it due to its advantages. That's why titanium would have been a perfect match.
Scandium isn't as good as titanium, but it's still stronger than 7075 aluminum, I believe.
"And you would pay more, harrydog.
What do you think the advantages of Ti or Sc over Al would be anyway?"
Yes, I said I'd be willing to pay more.
The main advantage of titanium over aluminum is, much greater fatigue strength. Aluminum will eventually develop cracks and fail, if it is shot enough. Granted, a small gun like this might not ever have that many rounds through it, but on the other hand, maybe it would. 17-4 stainless steel was specified because it has considerably greater strength than the usual 416 stainless. It's more difficult to machine, so it was a conscious decision to use it due to its advantages. That's why titanium would have been a perfect match.
Scandium isn't as good as titanium, but it's still stronger than 7075 aluminum, I believe.
Maybe, but Al cracks are usually associated with flex cycling. Even so, Rohrbaughs have a KT like lifetime warranty, so you'd always have a primo gun.
Since it's not a target or range gun, I doubt that I'd ever be shooting it all that much. (I get enough of shooting my P-32 fairly fast at the range.) "Mouse guns" and "pleasurable shooting" don't often occur to me in the same thought.
I'm very comfortable with 7075 having designed and made many parts with it, but scandium is a mystery and titanium gun parts have caused some very astute manufacturers to have long term cases of heartburn.
Speaking of scandium, I found a reference that recent worldwide use was about shockingly low, so I'm wondering what the actual alloy composition of the "Scandium" guns is?
The Scandium framed S&W revolvers contain only a small percentage of Scandium and are mostly aluminum alloy. Here's their explanation.
Since 1852 Smith & Wesson has been a pioneer in handgun development. Through a century and a half the people at Smith & Wesson have never ceased in their quest for better designs, efficient calibers and improved materials. This ongoing effort was, and is, designed to deliver products that meet or exceed our customer's expectations.
In 1952, Smith & Wesson introduced the Airweight® revolvers featuring aluminum alloy frames and steel cylinders. Thirteen years later, Smith & Wesson produced the first stainless steel handgun, a technological advancement soon copied by others. In 1998, the steel cylinders of the Airweight's were replaced with titanium, resulting in AirLite Ti™ products that delivered Smith & Wesson performance in an even lighter revolver.
The latest step in this technological evolution is the introduction of products that use scandium to produce the strongest, lightest revolvers known, the AirLite Scâ„¢ Series from Smith & Wesson.
Scandium is an element that is located between calcium and titanium in the Periodic Table of Elements. The possibility of its existence was predicted in 1871 but it wasn't until 1879 the Swedish Chemist, Lars Nilson, actually discovered this mysterious element after refining it from the mineral Euxenite. The source of this mineral was Scandinavia so Nilson named the new element Scandium. Pure scandium is extremely difficult to refine. Its overall concentration in the Earth's crust is roughly 5 parts per million. That means 500 tons of material would have to be processed to obtain 5 pounds of scandium. The market price of scandium today is in excess of $7,000 a pound.
Russia discovered a major source of scandium in the Ukraine and started the original investigations of scandium-aluminum alloys in the early 1970's. What soon became apparent to the Russian Scientists was that when very small amounts of scandium were combined with some aluminum alloys, major changes took place. The results were alloys in which there were great increases in tensile strength and enhanced superplastic performance. This meant far greater fatigue resistance and pressure containment capability. These discoveries rapidly resulted in the use of these new, stronger, lightweight alloys in the MIG fighters and Russian missiles. With the fall of the Iron Curtain and the release of countries such as Ukraine from Communist control this unique element was made available to the world.
Fast forward to the late 1990's where Smith & Wesson had just released its first generation of AirLite titanium and aluminum alloy revolvers.
We were searching for stronger lightweight metal systems to continue the AirLite concept into Magnum calibers. It was during this time that company engineers obtained the first samples of scandium alloy and the first AirLite Scâ„¢ Magnum revolvers were built. The startling result was a small frame, under 12-ounce revolver that could safely fire full load 158 grain 357 Magnum rounds.
So how does a little scandium produce this remarkable increase in strength in aluminum alloys? Regular aluminum alloys have a grain structure that can be coarse and non-uniform, not a desirable property for yield strength. Even more problematic, this structure has a tendency to weaken over time through use. Adding a tiny amount of scandium to the alloy produces several results, the most important being a new alloy with a much finer grain structure which means greater strength and a reduction or elimination of long-term fatigue effects. The scandium alloy is a material that is lighter in weight than titanium or steel but with tensile strength and fatigue resistance that make it an ideal candidate of firearms fabrication.
Since 1852 Smith & Wesson has been a pioneer in handgun development. Through a century and a half the people at Smith & Wesson have never ceased in their quest for better designs, efficient calibers and improved materials. This ongoing effort was, and is, designed to deliver products that meet or exceed our customer's expectations.
In 1952, Smith & Wesson introduced the Airweight® revolvers featuring aluminum alloy frames and steel cylinders. Thirteen years later, Smith & Wesson produced the first stainless steel handgun, a technological advancement soon copied by others. In 1998, the steel cylinders of the Airweight's were replaced with titanium, resulting in AirLite Ti™ products that delivered Smith & Wesson performance in an even lighter revolver.
The latest step in this technological evolution is the introduction of products that use scandium to produce the strongest, lightest revolvers known, the AirLite Scâ„¢ Series from Smith & Wesson.
Scandium is an element that is located between calcium and titanium in the Periodic Table of Elements. The possibility of its existence was predicted in 1871 but it wasn't until 1879 the Swedish Chemist, Lars Nilson, actually discovered this mysterious element after refining it from the mineral Euxenite. The source of this mineral was Scandinavia so Nilson named the new element Scandium. Pure scandium is extremely difficult to refine. Its overall concentration in the Earth's crust is roughly 5 parts per million. That means 500 tons of material would have to be processed to obtain 5 pounds of scandium. The market price of scandium today is in excess of $7,000 a pound.
Russia discovered a major source of scandium in the Ukraine and started the original investigations of scandium-aluminum alloys in the early 1970's. What soon became apparent to the Russian Scientists was that when very small amounts of scandium were combined with some aluminum alloys, major changes took place. The results were alloys in which there were great increases in tensile strength and enhanced superplastic performance. This meant far greater fatigue resistance and pressure containment capability. These discoveries rapidly resulted in the use of these new, stronger, lightweight alloys in the MIG fighters and Russian missiles. With the fall of the Iron Curtain and the release of countries such as Ukraine from Communist control this unique element was made available to the world.
Fast forward to the late 1990's where Smith & Wesson had just released its first generation of AirLite titanium and aluminum alloy revolvers.
We were searching for stronger lightweight metal systems to continue the AirLite concept into Magnum calibers. It was during this time that company engineers obtained the first samples of scandium alloy and the first AirLite Scâ„¢ Magnum revolvers were built. The startling result was a small frame, under 12-ounce revolver that could safely fire full load 158 grain 357 Magnum rounds.
So how does a little scandium produce this remarkable increase in strength in aluminum alloys? Regular aluminum alloys have a grain structure that can be coarse and non-uniform, not a desirable property for yield strength. Even more problematic, this structure has a tendency to weaken over time through use. Adding a tiny amount of scandium to the alloy produces several results, the most important being a new alloy with a much finer grain structure which means greater strength and a reduction or elimination of long-term fatigue effects. The scandium alloy is a material that is lighter in weight than titanium or steel but with tensile strength and fatigue resistance that make it an ideal candidate of firearms fabrication.
Double Maduro
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,125
Has anyone done tests to see how 9mm ammo performs from a 2.7 inch barrell?
Double Maduro
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,125
Probably be a big differance between the 2.
I think there was a thread here in the last week of so about a shootout at a gunshop. The good guy was using some highperformance rounds in his compact and they didn't expand at all.
Just wondering, $1000 is out of my price range.
I think there was a thread here in the last week of so about a shootout at a gunshop. The good guy was using some highperformance rounds in his compact and they didn't expand at all.
Just wondering, $1000 is out of my price range.
Selfdfenz
Member
Double Maduro,
I was thinking the same thing. Velocity?? Energy?? Have to wait on G.Loki but the data and pictures will be good when he does it.
One would expect a pretty significant flash signature at night with a short tube like that me thinks. Might explain why sights are questionable. I like sights all the same.
Even if this pistol is only half successful, it will spawn other companies to try and do the same thing if interest is great. And it sounds like it might go that way.
Also, wonder what an extra mag will cost? Sure hope it comes with a spare.
Thanks Blackhawk for keeping us informed. I'm very interested in this pistol. I wish this Company success.
S-
I was thinking the same thing. Velocity?? Energy?? Have to wait on G.Loki but the data and pictures will be good when he does it.
One would expect a pretty significant flash signature at night with a short tube like that me thinks. Might explain why sights are questionable. I like sights all the same.
Even if this pistol is only half successful, it will spawn other companies to try and do the same thing if interest is great. And it sounds like it might go that way.
Also, wonder what an extra mag will cost? Sure hope it comes with a spare.
Thanks Blackhawk for keeping us informed. I'm very interested in this pistol. I wish this Company success.
S-
If you shoot a P-89 alongside a P-11, you'll definitely notice the much greater noise and flash from the P-11. A 9mm Luger was made for a significantly longer tube, and the R-9 will have more flash and noise than the P-11, all at the expense of velocity and energy.
Since the R-9 will be the consummate SD pistol, my guess is that RBCD or other light bullet ammo will be preferred. My prediction: The R-9 will be a one shot COM stopper with something like RBCD ammo from up close and personal ranges. We shall see....
Since the R-9 will be the consummate SD pistol, my guess is that RBCD or other light bullet ammo will be preferred. My prediction: The R-9 will be a one shot COM stopper with something like RBCD ammo from up close and personal ranges. We shall see....
wun_8_seven
member
i looked at these at the shot show, looked like a $800. jennings to me. 187
WonderNine
member
It's always humorous to me when somebody questions the durability of a mousegun and then someone else responds with, well if it breaks you can just send it back they have an excellent warranty! 
I wonder does that warranty include life insurance?
I want something durable and something that lasts. Especially for the amount of money being asked for the Rohrbaugh.
I wonder does that warranty include life insurance?
I want something durable and something that lasts. Especially for the amount of money being asked for the Rohrbaugh.
It is humorous in a dark way, but all guns are machines, and all machines break.
A TFLer last year was shocked to find the hammer on his P-32 flopping around as he fondled it in his pocket. Without any provocation, the hammer spring had broken while the pistol rested in his pocket! He didn't realize it until then, but the gun he may have been confidently relying on, was broken.
The P-32 and P-11 use extension springs for the hammer spring.
The R-9 uses a compression spring. One less thing to go wrong.
WHEN something DOES go wrong, you have to hope you don't discover it when you can't afford for there to be anything wrong. It's not a question of IF....
A TFLer last year was shocked to find the hammer on his P-32 flopping around as he fondled it in his pocket. Without any provocation, the hammer spring had broken while the pistol rested in his pocket! He didn't realize it until then, but the gun he may have been confidently relying on, was broken.
The P-32 and P-11 use extension springs for the hammer spring.
The R-9 uses a compression spring. One less thing to go wrong.
WHEN something DOES go wrong, you have to hope you don't discover it when you can't afford for there to be anything wrong. It's not a question of IF....
NJ3
Member
I've wondered what would happen if this $1000 mouse gun flops and Rohrbaugh goes belly up. (I hope that doesn't happen BTW). How does the lifetime warranty help then? It doesn't!
Right. But the same warranty hazards exist no matter what you buy. S&W sold for $15m of paper...!? Amazing! What about those poor schlubs who bought Chrysler Corporation vehicles on the eve of its liquidation brinksmanship?
The bottom line is that accepting a warranty in lieu of absolute assurance that you'll get the benefit of your bargain is an exercise of faith whether the manufacturer is new and feeble or old and backed up by the contents of Fort Knox. As the cliche goes, "you pay your money and take your chances." The main reason I like warranties is that they're a statement of good faith on the part of the manufacturer.
In this case, the name of the company and the name of the product is the name of the owners. If they go belly-up, they'll have to change their name or live underground. I know them well enough to know they're not going to do anything to get mud on their name.
WonderNine
member
Dude, that's a lot of money to shell out for a paperweight!
Ouch harsh criticism! But seriously, tell me what other 4 shot .357 magnum can you walk around with all day at work in your front pants pocket?
I'll bet you don't own a mousegun that's loaded with .357 Remington Golden Sabers
WonderNine
member
Your statement here displays the reasons why I'm looking for a good high quality mousegun to carry and not a Kel-Tec. I want something that will last. Something that I can rely on with reasonable assurance that it will work if the time comes that I need it. I'm also of the motto carry two guns whenever possible. In addition to my Cop .357 I'd like to get a .357 American derringer DA-38 model when I can afford it. Also I'd like one in 9mm, but we'll see if I have the cash flow to provide for that as well.
Silver Bullet
Member
How did you compute this ? Do you know of another company that has something similar in the works, or do you just figure it will take someone that long to copy the R-9 ?
I had emailed the company, asking about their choice of 7075 aluminum.
Eric Rohrbaugh took the time to answer me. He explained that the choice of frame material for the R9 was not an easy one. They finally decided on 7075 aluminum because it had good strength characteristics (though not as good as titanium) at a reasonable price. Had they gone with titanium, the cost of the base R9 would have been higher, and they wanted to keep the cost under $1K.
He did say that they have had numerous inquiries about the possibility of other frame materials and, since they listen to customer input, may offer an all 17-4 version, or one with a titanium frame in the future, as an extra cost option. He said they believe in listening to the buying public.
That's good news to me!
Eric Rohrbaugh took the time to answer me. He explained that the choice of frame material for the R9 was not an easy one. They finally decided on 7075 aluminum because it had good strength characteristics (though not as good as titanium) at a reasonable price. Had they gone with titanium, the cost of the base R9 would have been higher, and they wanted to keep the cost under $1K.
He did say that they have had numerous inquiries about the possibility of other frame materials and, since they listen to customer input, may offer an all 17-4 version, or one with a titanium frame in the future, as an extra cost option. He said they believe in listening to the buying public.
That's good news to me!
WonderNine
member
Hmm....I may be waiting for the titanium frame
Pocket Pistol
Member
Waiting and drooling
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