Ross M-10 280 Sporter

[tark]

Just finished an attempt to restore this fine old rifle from the destructive bubba-ization that was inflicted upon it in years past. The original owner had high polished the metal to a Colt Python sheen, with a shiny stock to match. I attempted to restore it to a more original look. Didn't turn out too bad.

If any are wondering, this rifle was the original "7mm Magnum" The 280 Ross cartridge was introduced in 1907, with a 145 gr .288 dia. bullet at 3145 FPS. It was the first commercially loaded cartridge to exceed 3000 FPS, beating the 250-3000 by three years. Today, it can be loaded to about halfway between a 280 Remington and a 7mm Remington Mag.

This rifle, #8181 has the standard 26" barrel. Too bad it needs 288 dia. bullets. It can be loaded and shot with 284 bullets, and accuracy is acceptable, but there is a problem. Gas leaks past the bullet all the way down the bore and tears up the Grooves! This gun has a slight darkening of the grooves and I have stopped shooting it. Cases are made from .300 H&H brass, standard length brass is too short. The Ross case does not have a belt, so the H&H case expands ahead of the belt to the proper dia. It only has to do this once.

The rifle itself is a joy to handle. It points like a fine Purdy shotgun. It is a perfectly balanced seven pounds, 4 ounces. With that steel buttplate, and full power loads, it has a rather sharp recoil. OK, it kicks like a mule. The straight pull action is by far the smoothest and slickest I have ever used. Sorry, K-11 and K-31 fans, but your rifles are no match for this one. If you place one round in the magazine and hold the rifle vertically with the muzzle down, the bolt will, of its own weight, chamber the round.

I'm hoping for some help here. Does ANYONE make 287-288 dia. jacketed bullets. Barnes used to but I don't think they do anymore. I would really like to get this old classic shooting again.

Thanks.

 

[tark]

Here's a comparison of the 280 and the 30-06. Sir Charles used to claim 3000 FPS with the 175 gr bullet, which is, of course, ridiculous. He probably got more like 2600-2700. Notice the heavy taper. Probably a good thing on a straight pull rifle with limited initial extraction camming power.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My Ross is an M1905, military version, in .303 Brit.

The Canadians tried to solve the extraction problem by "hogging out" the chamber -- cutting it wider and deeper. Fired cases look like .303 Epps!

The M1905 Ross is the only military rifle I know that has WORSE sights than the M1903 Springfield.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I would like to know who designed the MkIIIB type rear sight....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Whoever he was, he had better eyes than I do.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Barnes used to but I don't think they do anymore.

Barnes used to make all sorts of cool bullets- like a .308 250 gr RNSP. Now, it's just the flavor of the week all copper specials (with or without platic tip ).

Good luck in getting the old gal shooting again!

 

[tark]

LysanderXIII, do you mean THIS contraption? LOL I have a MkIII Ross military and it is a whole different ball of wax compared to the M-10 Sporters. The action is the same, but it employs a different magazine, which is difficult to load, and can't even begin to rival the silky smoothness of the sporter's action.

It is a curious side note to history that the military Ross' were universally condemned while the sporters were equally universally praised. Jack O'Conner was highly impressed with the M-10 in 280. The cartridge was so accurate in the specially prepared MkIII target rifles that it was finally outlawed. It was beating the Army and their 1903s in the matches at Creedmoor (did I spell that right?) with annoying regularity.

The sight on the MkIII is great for target work, but too complicated and fragile for military usage. This is the rifle I referred to in my thread "Most accurate military rifle" earlier this month. The long sight radius of the gun is obvious in the picture.

 

[tark]

again, apologies for the haywire orientation of the pics They are all right side up on my screen. STILL can't figure out why they do that.

 

[mrh477]

What a unique sporter. Beautiful work as well.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The sights on my M1905 are terrible -- teeny tiny notch set too close to the eye.

Mine also has the weird magazine -- you squeeze a sheet metal control and simply drop in a handful of loose cartridges.

 

[tark]

Hi Vern. You mean THIS contraption? (yet another contraption!) This lever actually has a very important function. As the 1905 model had no provision for clip loading, this lever was Ross' answer. You were supposed to depress it with your left hand and dump in five rounds with your right. Any one who has ever tried to load a magazine with rimmed rounds knows that usually doesn't work. You will inevitably end up with rim of a lower round in front of the round above it which results in a jam. This is where the lever comes in. Pulling down on the exposed tab (lever, extension...whatever) and depressing it a few times will orient the rims of the rounds in the magazine correctly. It only takes a fraction of a second and it works quite well. A nice idea, but still slower than clip loading.

My gun is like yours, the fired cases look like a .303 improved. The shoulder is moved forward about a tenth of an inch and the empties are so swelled that they are useless for reloading. Despite all this, my gun has a pristine bore and will hit an apricot every time at 100 yards. An interesting, if insignificant, piece of history

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Just finished an attempt to restore this fine old rifle from the destructive bubba-ization that was inflicted upon it in years past. The original owner had high polished the metal to a Colt Python sheen, with a shiny stock to match. I attempted to restore it to a more original look. Didn't turn out too bad.

If any are wondering, this rifle was the original "7mm Magnum" The 280 Ross cartridge was introduced in 1907, with a 145 gr .288 dia. bullet at 3145 FPS. It was the first commercially loaded cartridge to exceed 3000 FPS, beating the 250-3000 by three years. Today, it can be loaded to about halfway between a 280 Remington and a 7mm Remington Mag.

This rifle, #8181 has the standard 26" barrel. Too bad it needs 288 dia. bullets. It can be loaded and shot with 284 bullets, and accuracy is acceptable, but there is a problem. Gas leaks past the bullet all the way down the bore and tears up the Grooves! This gun has a slight darkening of the grooves and I have stopped shooting it. Cases are made from .300 H&H brass, standard length brass is too short. The Ross case does not have a belt, so the H&H case expands ahead of the belt to the proper dia. It only has to do this once.

The rifle itself is a joy to handle. It points like a fine Purdy shotgun. It is a perfectly balanced seven pounds, 4 ounces. With that steel buttplate, and full power loads, it has a rather sharp recoil. OK, it kicks like a mule. The straight pull action is by far the smoothest and slickest I have ever used. Sorry, K-11 and K-31 fans, but your rifles are no match for this one. If you place one round in the magazine and hold the rifle vertically with the muzzle down, the bolt will, of its own weight, chamber the round.

I'm hoping for some help here. Does ANYONE make 287-288 dia. jacketed bullets. Barnes used to but I don't think they do anymore. I would really like to get this old classic shooting again.

Thanks.

Very cool rifle tark. I love bolt guns from that era. But like my sweetheart, the Newton, I would worry about the stock splitting with full power loads.

Bolt guns I have that are old, and prone to cracking stocks, get feed a diet of mostly light cast bullet loads. But I do hunt with them, so they do shoot full power loads at times, but I don't make a habit of it.

As far as finishing it, hard to go wrong with a rust blue and a oil finish stock.

The .280 Ross got a bad rep in it's day because some limp wristed British Earl or duke, what ever his standing was, got et by a lion when his HV .280 bullet broke up rather then penetrating.
It may be possible to plate .284 bullets up to .288. Or swage down .308's. Some thing to look at.

 

[Jim Watson]

Hawk makes a .286" bullet for the Ross.
http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm

Buffalo Arms a couple of .287" bullets.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158289&CAT=4141

Brass, too. Probably made out of .300 H&H as described but at least the work is done for you.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/280_Ross_Reloading_Brass_it-156960.aspx?CAT=3834

Huntington lists .287" bullets for the .275 H&H, but they ought to work in the Ross.
http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=19944&cat=408&page=1

Google finds a Ross board, but I can't get on it.

 

[tark]

Jim, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! Maybe I can get the old girl shooting with proper loads.

Jim in Anchorage, good advice. Ive never tried to shoot it with full power loads. One, I don't like straining old rifles and two, it has a nasty kick even with moderate loads. It weighs just under 7 1/2 pounds

The lion hunter's name was Grey. He was using standard 145 gr. "Copper tube expanding point" bullets. He never had a chance. That bullet is was intended for deer sized game. Back in those days they believed that velocity could make up for an improperly constructed bullet that was too light in the first place. And the cartridge did get a black mark on its record through no fault of its own. If Grey had been using a heavier bullet (The 280 was loaded with 175 gr bullets) he might have lived, but who knows. I wouldn't choose a 28 caliber anything to stop a charging lion in the first place, but maybe it was all he could get his hands on given the circumstances.

thanks for the info, one and all. I have one more pic to post as soon as I find it. "IT" is as rare as a gas trap garand or an original 45 ACP Luger, and it is connected to the rifle....

 

[tark]

A catalog! This is the only Ross catalog I have ever seen. It came with the gun. There is no date anywhere in the cat but it does mention that the Canadians cleaned our clocks at Wimbledon and the 1912 Bisley Meet. There is mention of the "Waldegrave, the Bass and Edge shoots" Whatever THOSE are!!! So the catalog was obviously printed after 1912.

Note the rather steep price of the M-10 sporter!! $55 bucks was a lot of money for a rifle in 1912! There was another sporter in the catalog, the E-10 sporter. It was a MkIII military action and magazine and chambered for 35 Winchester!!

 

[tark]

Three more. I am extremely suspicious of the three grizzlies in under a minute claim. The 280 is no more a grizzly cartridge than it is a lion cartridge. it would not be my first choice for either one.

 

[Slamfire]

Tark: I am envious I would have bought that rifle in a second. It is beautiful.

I suppose you are aware of the issues of the Ross rifle with the interrupted both head. In fact, your military rifle seems to have a modification to ensure that the bolt head is not assembled incorrectly. The interrupted screw bolt head can be flipped 180 degrees and yet, still inserted into the action. Due to the claw extractor it will hold a round on the bolt face, but the bolt will not be in battery by at least one screw thread. This will cause the cartridge to rupture and the bolt to be blown out. That happened, shooters did get bolts through their heads. All this stuff was all over the pre WW2 press.

If assembled correctly, that breech is far stronger than a solid bolt lug, due to the amount of metal to shear in the receiver, and the bearing surface everywhere. The more bearing surface, contact pressures are lower for the same load. But, none of that matters if the bolt is not fully in battery!

Wish I had one of those, Ross rifles are so rare that I have only handled them, and the owners would not let me take the bolt. I so wanted to see how to flip the bolt head.

 

[tark]

That I am, slamfire. And you did not have take the bolt apart to achieve the dangerous condition. Merely pull the bolt head (lugs) forward as far as possible and rotate them in a counter clockwise position. They will snap back against the bolt body and they will be in the UNLOCKED position. The bolt on the bottom is from my MkIII and is in the proper position to be re-inserted into the receiver. The bolt at the top is from my 280. IT IS IN THE DANGEROUS POSITION !! Notice how the locking lugs are in the unlocked position.

Now, to be fair to the gun, if you attempt to re-insert this bolt into the receiver, it will resist your every effort. If you are successful, it will move forward and chamber a round only with considerable effort. It will not want to move. This alone should tell one that something is wrong. To make matters worse, the firing pin is protruding from the breech face!! If you do manage to force a round into the chamber you will probably set it off!

All of this was corrected later with a simple rivet in the bolt, but it was too late to save the gun's reputation.

The other major problem with the MkIIIs was their annoying habit of jamming and getting soldiers killed. This was not the result of mud in the trenches. It was, again, poor design. The bolt stop on a MkIII acts against the left rear locking lug. There is not enough contact surface between the two to prevent the bolt stop from peening the lug to the point of deformity. When this happened the lug would bind in the locking lug recesses. This got worse with each frantic reload in the heat of battle. Eventually the bolt froze up solid, at which point the soldier probably threw his rifle at the enemy and desperately looked around for a Lee Enfield. This problem was identified and corrected, but again, too late to save the reputation of the rifle.

I have tested the mud theory on my own MkIII. It handled mud as well as well as my Mauser or my #1 Mk III. It is too bad the Ross Rifles were plagued by design flaws. My 280 is is a joy to hold and to shoot. In many ways it is as modern as tomorrow. It was certainly ahead of its time. The action is strong. I have seen an M-10 280 sporter that was re-stocked and re barreled in 505 gibbs. Its owner wanted the fastest bolt rifle available in a real "stopper" caliber. I guess he got it. I hope it weighed more that 7 1/2 pounds!

 

[tark]

my schitzo computer strikes again, The bolt on the LEFT is the dangerous one.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

You do have your problems with pics. I had to flip some of your photos so I can tell what I looking at

 

[tark]

Any idea what causes that, Jim? They all look upright when I try to post them.

 

[tark]

By the way, I saw a you tube video not long ago on a deliberate attempt to blow up a Ross MkIII with the improperly assembled bolt. It did indeed blow up in spectacular fashion, but the bolt was stopped by the bolt stop. It did not leave the gun. I would hate to think of how large a chunk of the shooter's hand would be removed by the recoiling bolt. It IS possible. The testers did mention how difficult it was to work the bolt.

Don't think I'll try it....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Tark
Hi Vern. You mean THIS contraption? (yet another contraption!) This lever actually has a very important function. As the 1905 model had no provision for clip loading, this lever was Ross' answer. You were supposed to depress it with your left hand and dump in five rounds with your right. Any one who has ever tried to load a magazine with rimmed rounds knows that usually doesn't work. You will inevitably end up with rim of a lower round in front of the round above it which results in a jam. This is where the lever comes in. Pulling down on the exposed tab (lever, extension...whatever) and depressing it a few times will orient the rims of the rounds in the magazine correctly. It only takes a fraction of a second and it works quite well. A nice idea, but still slower than clip loading.

That's the critter -- a clever idea that was outdated when it was developed.

Originally posted by Tark
My gun is like yours, the fired cases look like a .303 improved. The shoulder is moved forward about a tenth of an inch and the empties are so swelled that they are useless for reloading. Despite all this, my gun has a pristine bore and will hit an apricot every time at 100 yards. An interesting, if insignificant, piece of history

If the sights weren't so hard to see -- especially in dark woods -- I'd kill a deer with mine, just to say I'd done it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

By the way, I saw a you tube video not long ago on a deliberate attempt to blow up a Ross MkIII with the improperly assembled bolt. It did indeed blow up in spectacular fashion, but the bolt was stopped by the bolt stop. It did not leave the gun. I would hate to think of how large a chunk of the shooter's hand would be removed by the recoiling bolt. It IS possible. The testers did mention how difficult it was to work the bolt.

Back before I retired, I got an invite to attend the Canadian Ground Forces Training Center at Gagetown, NB. They have Rosses handing on the wall in the Officer's Mess, and the talk turned to them. I told the Canadians they should never have got rid of that rifle -- you have to be stupid to get the bolt in wrong, and by now all the stupid Canadians would have killed themselves and their national IQ would be 10 points higher.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Any idea what causes that, Jim? They all look upright when I try to post them.

Are you posting from a photo bucket account?