Rossi .45 Colt....16" or 20"?

[Archangel14]

Okay, I'm on a big bore kick and planned on getting a 45-70. Problem is that the Marlin I was looking at had some real problems, even though it was new. The wood to metal fit was terrible! So I've decided to go another route....Rossi in .45 colt. I want a good "outside" defense gun (think violent looters in a Hurricane Sandy-type scenario) that I can also do some hunting with. I think the .45 Colt is a good balance between a lever gun in .357 and .44 mag. I hand load anyway.

HERE'S my questions: 1) Rossi .45 Colt with a 16 or 20 inch barrell?, and 2)what's your reasoning? Now I know some of us are going to want to stray off topic. I can see it now, "why a .45 when you can have a .44 mag?". I much appreciate your concerns, I do, but let's stick with the topic.

I thank you in advance.

 

[conhntr]

20" holds more bullets. The sights are further apart

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

I recently bought a used Winchester Trapper 94AE 16" in .45 Colt. I ended up liking it a lot more than I had expected. It's great fun to shoot and is very light and handy. I wouldn't think twice about being under-gunned with one (as compared to any other lever rifle in similar caliber). I also think it would be fine for hunting if you keep your shots under 100 yards.

 

[Gryffydd]

I'd go with the 20". Your stated use wouldn't gain all that much from the shorter length and as was said you get better sight radius and capacity. And then there's velocity as well.

In my 20" Marlin 45 Colt I can easily get 1900fps from a 250gr XTP. With the 92 you could push that over 2000 without breaking a sweat.

250@2000+ puts it into 458 SOCOM territory.

 

[Badlander]

I like my 16" rossi .45 Colt very well. Very handy. I don't know how you rate the 45 Colt between the .357Mag and .44 mag. When handloaded It will surpass both of those.

I even like the big loop lever on the rossi! Works better than it looks.

 

[Archangel14]

Nice. I put the .45 Colt between the .357 mag and .44 mag because factory .45 loads seem anemic, at best. I see some manufacturers showing less than 800 fps with their .45 loads. Hand loading, I'd keep it around 1,100 fps. That's enough to take a hog head to tail with the right hard cast bullet. It's also enough to put down anyone at 75 yards with any bullet. Considering that most .44 mags and .357's travel well in excess of 1,100, I'd put the .45 Colt "in between", at least where I'd load it. Bigger and slower than the .357. But that bigger bullet means more damage, even at lower velocities.

 

[Bill_Rights]

Double Tap Ammo =P

You can get .45 LC +P rounds loaded up to quite high pressures from Double Tap Ammo. I think Buffalo Bore has some too. Prob others...

Let's see.... Double Tap's loading offerings change from time to time, but now they are offering a 300 grain jacketed hollow point @ 1688fps from a 16.5" carbine. Elsewhere, this "carbine" is explicitely stated to be the Legacy Puma M92, and they may also give fps from 20" barrel.

Also offering a 255 grain Keith-Style SWC Hardcast @ 1775fps from a 16.5" carbine.

Either of them's gonna do some damage....

Ain't Capitalism great!? Some entrepreneur will fill most every niche and need.

 

[Archangel14]

The reason I'm attracted to the .45 Colt is because it's typically a lower velocity round. I'm aware that properly loaded one get get it traveling 1500+ fps. But is that really necessary? I'm not out to kill an elephant. I'm advised that a hard cast .45 LC traveling at about 1050-1100fps will penentrate and pass through a medium size hog head to tail. I think the point of a large, slower round is that is allows you to "smack" your target, penetrate it, possibly lodge in the target (depending on the bullet shape and weight). That dumps the energy in the target. That drops the target SRT, man or beast. I'm fine with having a large bullet at slower speeds.

 

[CraigC]

You don't need a lot of velocity to "kill" anything but a little extra helps flatten trajectory.

That dumps the energy in the target.

This is bunk. Energy does not kill. Tissue damage and blood loss or nervous system damage kill. You want full penetration as two holes bleed much better than one.

 

[Archangel14]

Bunk....a large object smacking into you, entering you, and stopping in you is much more likley to stun you right there than a fast bullet that passes through. We must admit that a large object getting stuck in the gut will not end a life nearing as quickly as a small object that passes through a heart or lung. But with that said, the large projectile is more effective at short ranges. Period. Would you rather get hit by a .22 in the shoulder at 15 yards or a .50 caliber round? There's a reason why the slow moving, .45 ACP is so effective at short ranges. I want a .45LC. It will never be an effective 200 yard+ round. But within 100-150 at 1,100 fps it's a killer.

 

[CraigC]

Sounds great, in theory. In the real world, the big bores do their best work by punching big holes through the vitals and exiting. This is what makes them such reliable killers.

But I have a newsflash for you, a 250gr .45 at 1100fps will still exit a deer at any angle. My statement about velocity was to flattening trajectory. It won't kill them any deader, nor will it penetrate measurably better.

 

[USSR]

Bunk....a large object smacking into you, entering you, and stopping in you is much more likley to stun you right there than a fast bullet that passes through.

Sorry, but CraigC is correct. The mathematical calculation known as "Energy" never killed anything. What kills is destruction of vital tissue and rapid loss of blood pressure. In both cases, there is more tissue destruction and blood loss when you have both an entry and exit wound.

Don

 

[Archangel14]

Will a .45LC traveling at 1,100 fps strike a man in the chest at 125 yards and exit? Particularly if the bullet is a 125 grainer? I don't know the answer to that, but I know that a 30-06 at the same distance doing 2,300 fps likely will. I want to disable. I'm not so concerned about hunting, and I don't deer hunt. If anything, I may use my anticipated lever action for some hog hunting. After seeing Hurricane Sandy and Katrina, and living in an earthquake zone, I've decided to get a get fast pointing, reliable rifle that fires a big projectile, is reasonably accurate to within 150 yards, and can stun a man on impact. I guess I should have been more specific in that regard. To fulfill that purpose, I think the big, slow bullet is what I'm looking for. I agree that hitting vitals and blood loss will kill. But tell that to my ranger friend who shot a Talibani fighter with his M4 16 times in the neck and chest and still had to fight him off hand to hand! After is was over, he found several "vitals" shots. One 12 gauge slug blast to the Talibani's shoulder would have ended it.

 

[cpt-t]

Archangel14: I shoot a old Rossi SS 20in barrel 45 LC and have had it for 10 years or so. I chose the 20in barrel because it holds 10 rounds for Cowboy Action Shooting. And the 45LC is the same caliber as my pistols. The rifle handels very well and it is very accurate. And I have hunted with old Rossi alot mostly Pigs but I carry it quite a bit and have used it to kill a few coyotes, and other varmints even killed a couple of deer with it. I have never lost any thing I have shot with it. I shoot mainley 250 to 255 gr RNFP hard cast bullest, the levers I have don`t like SWC`S very well don`t feed very as well as RNFP`S. I get full penatration on evety thing, I have shot with it so far. I usually load to about 1000 fps and I can`t remember shooting much past 100 or 150 yds, mostly 50 to 75 yrs or less. I have a 357 and a 44Mag lever guns but I just use the old Rossi more. It is a great walking around hunting rifle, and would make a great SD rifle also. If I could help you any more, I would be glad to.
ken

 

[CraigC]

Will a .45LC traveling at 1,100 fps strike a man in the chest at 125 yards and exit? Particularly if the bullet is a 125 grainer?

Not with a 125gr. Standard weight bullets are around 250-260gr. I wouldn't use any lighter than that. Forget the nonsense about energy dump. Mild to moderate big bores don't have much anyway. What they do have in their favor is bullet diameter and mass. Use it to its fullest advantages, poke two holes.

But tell that to my ranger friend who shot a Talibani fighter with his M4 16 times in the neck and chest and still had to fight him off hand to hand! After is was over, he found several "vitals" shots. One 12 gauge slug blast to the Talibani's shoulder would have ended it.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Archangel14]

Craig, I'm seeing your point. And my mistake in inquiring as to a 125 grain in 45LC....I don't think there is such a thing! I meant 250 gr.

You know, I've seen 45LC loads that travel at 850 fps described as "anemic". But that's what I load my 45 ACP hollow points to and they blow through phone books at 20 feet. And compared to super fast 3,000+ rounds, the 45LC is anemic. But my question to you is, "so what?" I'm thinking that any 250-300 grain projectile moving at 1,000 fps will simply kill any 300 pound creature dead, assuming proper placement. What are your thoughts? And am I assuming correctly that a bigger bullet, like a 45 LC, is more forgiving in terms of its ability to kill, than smaller projectiles? I bow to your knowledge......

 

[gazpacho]

I know this whole thread is basically about 45 Colt, but if you still want a 45-70, and money is no object, I highly recommend Wild West Gun's Guide Guns. They are truly a beauty.

As to 16" vs 20", I say get the 16". It is a bit handier in the brush.

 

[CraigC]

I've seen 45LC loads that travel at 850 fps described as "anemic".

You still have a lot of shooters who believe that kinetic energy is the be-all, end-all indication of a cartridge's performance. Those of us who have been hunting with mild to moderate big bores know better. That 250gr bullet at 850fps will fully penetrate end to end on any deer alive and most hogs and kill either deader than fried chicken.

I'm thinking that any 250-300 grain projectile moving at 1,000 fps will simply kill any 300 pound creature dead, assuming proper placement.

Jump up to 300gr cast bullets and you're talking about enough for elk and moose.

And am I assuming correctly that a bigger bullet, like a 45 LC, is more forgiving in terms of its ability to kill, than smaller projectiles?

The high velocity rifle bullet absolutely depends on proper expansion for it to work. If it expands too quickly, the wound will be large but shallow. If it expands too slowly or not at all, there won't be sufficient tissue damage for a clean kill. The large diameter and heavy weight of the big bore may not kill as quickly as a high velocity round (if everything works perfectly) but it will work far more consistently. Because its performance is not solely dependent upon the one factor that is diminishing most rapidly.....velocity. Diameter and mass are constant.

 

[Archangel14]

"deader than fried chicken"....LOL

 

[Bill_Rights]

Wow! I am glad you all sorted that out amicably. I was busy or would have been in the middle of it. As it is, by being silent, I learned something.

But I, like Archangel, own a .45 ACP and am a fan of the 850 fps bumble bee round. It does amazing damage! Part of the reason for that is momentum transfer, and momentum is calculated as mass * velocity. By contrast, bullet energy is calculated as 1/2 * mass * velocity^2 , where the "^2" symbol means to take the mathematical square of the velocity. So energy goes up dramatically as you increase bullet velocity.

But momentum transfer is not just mass * velocity. There is also a coupling factor, which ranges from 0 to 1.0 and which sort of measures how much of the momentum actually gets transferred to the target. Big bullet diameter is a fool-proof way to push this factor closer to 1.0. Some also argue that slower bullet speed actually increases the coupling factor, because it gives more time to involve more tissue and spread the impact to a wider area of the target, as the bullet interacts with the target. Some would even say that the increase of coupling factor as bullet speed decreases is faster than the decrease in momentum as bullet speed decreases. Therefore, decreasing bullet speed can result in more momentum transferred to the target. All of these effects, of course, would be most observable in only certain ranges of bullet speed, for certain shapes of bullet, for certain characteristics of the target (tough bear hide versus thin deer skin) and other factors.

I say that the amount of momentum transfer is directly related to what has been called "knock-down power". Momentum transfer is also somehow important to bullet impact "shock".

So basically I am agreeing with Archangel. Slow, fat and heavy can be really, really good. (Except for bullet drop, etc., as has been pointed out...)

But I also like a 2000 fps 250-300 grain .45" bullet. In a Katrina-like emergency, you never know when you might need to shoot through 1/4"-thick tempered glass, disable a vehicle's mechanics or batter down a door/gate lock or hinge, etc. This is really hypothetical, but you won't detract from your animal-target lethality enough to matter, just because your 300 grain .45" dia bullet is moving faster than 1500 fps rather than slower than 1000 fps. I don't want to stand a take either bullet .

 

[Archangel14]

Great, you had to go and throw mathematics into the fray! Now I'm totally confused!

 

[firesky101]

Get the 20" for the increased capacity, and longer sight radius. I have never had a problem pointing any levergun quickly.

 

[Badlander]

Hope to see some pics of your new rifle soon no mater which length you choose. You will enjoy the .45 Colt cartridge. I doubt you will be able to pass on the hotter loads for long. 10 gr Unique with 250 Cast Is my plinker load. Still workin with A 300gr cast And A large helping of H110.

 

[Archangel14]

Well don't hold your breath. I plan on getting it as a Christmas present to myself!

Hey, I don't want to make anyone think I'm fickle, but I was going through some of my "gun stuff" last evening and realized that I have a full set of pristine .44 mag dies and quite a bit of .44 mag brass. I'm essentially set up for .44 mag. Will I be making a mistake going with .45LC? I guess I could load "down" into .44 special range. That might fit the bill.

 

[bannockburn]

I have a Rossi Model 92 with the 16" barrel and I really like it for its short overall length. It just seems to handle better and get on target quicker than the longer 20" barrel version. I went with one in .45LC because that's the same caliber as my Beretta Stampede and Ruger Vaquero.