Rough surface on bolt of Colt 2nd Gen, "F" series, 3rd Dragoon

[WWIINut]

I just got a Colt 2nd Gen, "F" series, 3rd Dragoon that is near new. First off, this is my first "real" Colt percussion revolver so I don't know exactly what to expect.

It doesnt look like it has been fired but the bolt looks like it is very rough. This kind of roughness wouldnt be from firing anyway. Its like they might have forgotten to finish it after fitting? Would it have been left in the white? There are several surface grind marks around the bolt also.

I will attach a few pictures. I would appreciate any comments you experts out there might have, and if you might have seen this with others.

 

[WWIINut]

 

[45 Dragoon]

Your 2nd gen Colt, sad to say, is a typical '70s/ '80s production of "reproduction" quality as far as the action is concerned. Looks great on the outside, "run of the mill" on the inside. I am of the opinion that they were probably meant to be more "collector" items rather than shooters. That said, they can be made into an excellent shooter but they almost always have way more problems than any current reproduction from Pietta or Uberti.

Mike

 

[expat_alaska]

I am of the opinion that they were probably meant to be more "collector" items rather than shooters.

I wholeheartedly agree, considering the prices that the (usually unfired) revolvers, cases, and accoutrements command. Piettas and Ubertis can be tuned, modified, and shot, and the value does not depreciate. I can't imagine someone installing a cap rake, hammer stop, or action shield, et al, on a "Colt" revolver. They were made using unfinished Uberti (and sometimes ASM) parts (which Colt did the finishing), and it looks like the OP's bolt is just that: unfinished.

To the OP: bolts and hands are always in the white, not blued or color cased because one cannot see them with the revolver assembled.

Regards,

Jim

 

[arcticap]

It doesnt look like it has been fired but the bolt looks like it is very rough. This kind of roughness wouldnt be from firing anyway. Its like they might have forgotten to finish it after fitting? Would it have been left in the white? There are several surface grind marks around the bolt also.

What do the cylinder notches look like?
Do they show signs of the bolt not fitting properly?

It's neat to think about all of the different workers that it took to put the gun together and all of the operations that went into building it.
I'd like to see more close ups of it, and I'll bet that it's a handsome gun.
Do you intend to fire it?

 

[WWIINut]

Thank you for the replies. I had a feeling it was something like that. I do remember Mike telling me that the 2nd gen guns do need work (had the “mule” work done on my Uberti Walker last year).

I havent decided for sure whether to fire it. I got it for a reasonable price so i wouldn’t feel bad if I did. I think it was truly NIB because it doesn’t have much wear on the notches.

something else I just remembered. It has a very heavy trigger pull - about 9lbs by my cheap spring gauge. Is this common?

It has some of the best color I have seen. Here are a few more pics:

 

[45 Dragoon]

expat, you wouldn't believe how many folks want their 2nd gens to be shooters!! I have several right now and they are typically the worst ones to work on!! But, I may be the only one working on them at this point. Most places won't accept 2nd gen bp Colts (now I know why!!) but if I don't, who will?

Mike

 

[45 Dragoon]

Brian S !! Howdy!! Anyway, great looking Dragoon!! Did they break through to the loading leaver cut when they drilled the arbor hole? At least 50% (if not more) of the belt pistols I've done have been that way.

Mike

 

[expat_alaska]

This is what a new Uberti bolt looks like from the front. There is a bevel/slope on the top surface of the bolt head where the top lower side engages the cylinder stop slot approaches first. Sometimes it is (or can be modified) for thickness on the right side (in the photo) if the bolt head is too wide for the stop slots. The high left side (in the photo) must not be altered on the side of the bolt head to insure a solid lock-up.



IMO, it appears from your recent photos that the cylinder has never been turned. Very nice looking revolver! I would be curious what you paid for it, but that is your business.

Regards,

Jim

 

[expat_alaska]

expat, you wouldn't believe how many folks want their 2nd gens to be shooters!! I have several right now and they are typically the worst ones to work on!! But, I may be the only one working on them at this point. Most places won't accept 2nd gen BP Colts (now I know why!!) but if I don't, who will?

Mike

The Kid.

Regards,

Jim

 

[45 Dragoon]

The Kid.

Regards,

Jim

He hasn't asked me about those yet so . . . we'll see. And, at his prices, I wouldn't touch one!

Mike

 

[WWIINut]

Brian S !! Howdy!! Anyway, great looking Dragoon!! Did they break through to the loading leaver cut when they drilled the arbor hole? At least 50% (if not more) of the belt pistols I've done have been that way.

Mike

this pic is a little dark but shows that the hole is solid

 

[45 Dragoon]

Nice! Probably the "horse pistols" would be safe from the "breakthrough". I do more belt pistols than any of the others.

Mike

 

[WWIINut]

This is what a new Uberti bolt looks like from the front. There is a bevel/slope on the top surface of the bolt head where the top lower side engages the cylinder stop slot approaches first. Sometimes it is (or can be modified) for thickness on the right side (in the photo) if the bolt head is too wide for the stop slots. The high left side (in the photo) must not be altered on the side of the bolt head to insure a solid lock-up.

View attachment 945532

IMO, it appears from your recent photos that the cylinder has never been turned. Very nice looking revolver! I would be curious what you paid for it, but that is your business.

Regards,

Jim

Jim - I have about $625 in it including shipping. I think the cylinder has been turned a few times because there is slight wear internally where the hand contacts the cylinder.

thanks for the pic. I wonder if it is better to leave the bolt as-is or take it out and at least dress it up with some 1000 grit? I just worry that it will cause excessive wear if/when I do turn it?

 

[expat_alaska]

I think just polishing the surfaces would make it maybe a bit smoother, but be careful about taking too much metal from those surfaces.

If you want to learn a bit about tuning these guns, Larsen E. Pettifogger produced a series of treatises about both the Pietta and Uberti revolvers around 2008.

The link below will lead to both. I find the .pdf files are the more user friendly on my computer.

Enjoy a bit of reading.

Regards,

Jim

https://archive.org/download/PettiFogger_Files/TOR Posts pdf/

 

[TheOutlawKid]

The Kid.

Regards,

Jim

Lol yes ive worked a few second gens...last one i did was mr.woodnbows about 2 or 3 weeks back. Had the same issue the OP posted about the bolt being shaved down and a little rough but i think they did this at the factory so that the bolt didnt hammer and indent the slots to much or at all...who knows tho. His gun was very very stiff...i had commented how the mainspring was like a truck leaf spring! Haha. The insides were a little rough but all in all it only took a day to get it as slick as a slicked up new pietta or uberti. it came out great..atleast i was happy with the outcome and he says he and his wife loved it. Buuuuuut i still rather work piettas...love them guns.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

He hasn't asked me about those yet so . . . we'll see. And, at his prices, I wouldn't touch one!

Mike

Lol mike...i dont mind working them..but i think i will only do so if they cycle and dont need parts. But then again i do like new gun makes and models to work on as it helps me learn and build experience. Ive learned quite a bit troubleshooting older guns like the 2nd gens and ASM guns.

 

[WWIINut]

I think just polishing the surfaces would make it maybe a bit smoother, but be careful about taking too much metal from those surfaces.

If you want to learn a bit about tuning these guns, Larsen E. Pettifogger produced a series of treatises about both the Pietta and Uberti revolvers around 2008.

The link below will lead to both. I find the .pdf files are the more user friendly on my computer.

Enjoy a bit of reading.

Regards,

Jim

https://archive.org/download/PettiFogger_Files/TOR Posts pdf/

Thanks! I think I read through these a few years ago when I bought my first BP (Uberti 1860). I will re-educate myself.

 

[45 Dragoon]

If it's dropping correctly (by some freak of nature) it will leave more a mark rough than not (I'd polish it).

Mike

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Colt second gens are horrible and I've never seen one that I considered set up to shoot out of the box. As has been mentioned before I think they were meant more for the collectors and they never thought people would actually want to shoot them. Not all that different from the SAA's of the 70's and 80's

 

[woodnbow]

My Butterfield limited edition has been great shooter. It came with two cylinders, each with unique engraving and miracle of miracles they’re both well timed and fitted. Either cylinder will shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards with 30 grain loads and .457 round ball.

But other than that, I’ve owned four second generation guns. One was unworkable out of the box but was not difficult to get up and running. The others were the equal of any box stock replica Pietta or Uberti, the dimensions are of course much closer to the original and the bluing and case hardening head and shoulders above the replicas. I like them. Probably will buy more as funds permit.

 

[electricfactory]

I'm going to agree with you woodenbow, I'm a-ok with the Colt 2nd Gen guns. I just recently bought my second 2nd Gen, a Colt 1851 Navy 2nd Gen below for $425 and it's a lou lou! ( bet you haven't heard that term in a while, jeez how old am I anyway ?? ).

This one one was made in 1973 but it appears to be an antique in terms of finish- plum bluish brown finish with mottled case colors. Not so mechanically as the action is perfect, bore and nipples as well. I think the previous owner may have antiqued this revolvers finish although I can't be sure. Someone must have given the action a lot of attention too because it couldn't be any smoother.

In any case I'm completely smitten with the gun and can't wait to give it a go at the range- a shooter waiting to be shot.

My Butterfield limited edition has been great shooter. It came with two cylinders, each with unique engraving and miracle of miracles they’re both well timed and fitted. Either cylinder will shoot under 2 inches at 25 yards with 30 grain loads and .457 round ball.

But other than that, I’ve owned four second generation guns. One was unworkable out of the box but was not difficult to get up and running. The others were the equal of any box stock replica Pietta or Uberti, the dimensions are of course much closer to the original and the bluing and case hardening head and shoulders above the replicas. I like them. Probably will buy more as funds permit.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Hey, I understand that one can find a "decent" example of a 2nd gen and probably with some "work" done . . . that isn't the norm. Heck, I had a brand new '76 Vega that was an excellent car but I knew that wasn't the norm either. Mr. electricfactory, does the arbor hole your revolver break through into the loading leaver plunger cutout? It has a short arbor by the way ( unless previously corrected).

I "fixed" 2 Butterfield revolvers several years ago, those were the first I had ever seen. It's good that you and Mr. woodnbow have examples that you like, just be aware that they have same problems that all the run of the mill open top revolvers of the '70s/80s have.

Mike

 

[electricfactory]

Hi Mike,
Thanks very much for posting, I'm going to take a look at the Navy above to see what you're referring to. Could you be a bit more explicit as to what I should look for and what needs to happen to fix it ? Thanks again.

Hey, I understand that one can find a "decent" example of a 2nd gen and probably with some "work" done . . . that isn't the norm. Heck, I had a brand new '76 Vega that was an excellent car but I knew that wasn't the norm either. Mr. electricfactory, does the arbor hole your revolver break through into the loading leaver plunger cutout? It has a short arbor by the way ( unless previously corrected).

I "fixed" 2 Butterfield revolvers several years ago, those were the first I had ever seen. It's good that you and Mr. woodnbow have examples that you like, just be aware that they have same problems that all the run of the mill open top revolvers of the '70s/80s have.

Mike

 

[expat_alaska]

This one one was made in 1973 but it appears to be an antique in terms of finish- plum bluish brown finish with mottled case colors. Not so mechanically as the action is perfect, bore and nipples as well. I think the previous owner may have antiqued this revolvers finish although I can't be sure. Someone must have given the action a lot of attention too because it couldn't be any smoother.

I always look at the wood first for figure (yours is very nice), and then the screw slots, and then the wedge/barrel area for damage. Your wood looks like it was refinished with Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil. I have used it on all of my revolvers. Once it hardens after a few days, judicious use of #0004 steel wool will remove the surface application imperfections (seen on your wood), and then a vigorous polishing of the wood with a piece of scrap denim will result in a satin finish.

Regards,

Jim