4thHorseman
Member
I seen an excellent hour show last night on the Discovery channel. It dealt with Ruby Ridge and the problems that lead to up to the incident.
Did anyone else see it?
Did anyone else see it?
Ruby Ridge on Discovery
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Henry Bowman
Senior Member
Was it worth buying a copy from them on tape?
Braz
Member
Dang,
I missed it 4th. How did they portray it? Last I remember, he was needled for months by BATF informants to buy or modify weapons that were against the law. He refused until sawing a shotgun barrel to get them off his back. Then didn't he miss a court date? No matter his plight, he handled it wrong from what I heard.
The BATF was out of control. Few outsiders would dispute their heavy handed badgering, and irresponsible ROE. RR and Waco stand as testiments to grandstanding LE. Wish I'd seen the show.
I missed it 4th. How did they portray it? Last I remember, he was needled for months by BATF informants to buy or modify weapons that were against the law. He refused until sawing a shotgun barrel to get them off his back. Then didn't he miss a court date? No matter his plight, he handled it wrong from what I heard.
The BATF was out of control. Few outsiders would dispute their heavy handed badgering, and irresponsible ROE. RR and Waco stand as testiments to grandstanding LE. Wish I'd seen the show.
4thHorseman
Member
Braz, it was very objective. It stated both sides. I didn't know much about it until I saw the show. Weaver's 14 year old son was shot in the back while chasing one of his dogs, Weaver was shot in the back by a sniper while opening a shed door, and his wife was shot in the head while trying to open the screen door. The Weaver's NEVER fired a single shot. The FBI changed the rules of engagement (later proved unconstituational by the way). The new rules of engagement stated something to the effect of they "should shoot anyone carrying a gun." Weaver's wife did not have one. It was a botched effort from the start. They even had a an APC there. It even showed the FBI in tears when they found out what they have done. I even broke down.
One must truely understand what freedom is to understand their true plight.
Yes it is truely worth seeing. The Discovery channel trys to tone things down a bit too. It still got me upset.
One must truely understand what freedom is to understand their true plight.
Yes it is truely worth seeing. The Discovery channel trys to tone things down a bit too. It still got me upset.
blades67
Member
Not a single fbi agent has been charged for any of those murders.
wun_8_seven
member
bs, randy weaver is a criminal and a coward that hid behind his family rather than face up to his crimes. i agree that the marshalls and the fbi screwed up. but had weaver been a man and went to court the feds would not have been any where near his family. 187
4thHorseman
Member
In America, a failure to appear in court charge does not constitute assasiation of your family by FBI snipers.
The courts later up held Weavers rights. The government does not have the right to assasinate your wife and child because you are outside the law. It does not give the FBI there own right to make up new laws either. I suggest you find out more on the subject like I did.
Judging from your location I can understand why you feel so strongly for the FBI. But again, the FBI should not break laws trying to enforce them.
The courts later up held Weavers rights. The government does not have the right to assasinate your wife and child because you are outside the law. It does not give the FBI there own right to make up new laws either. I suggest you find out more on the subject like I did.
Judging from your location I can understand why you feel so strongly for the FBI. But again, the FBI should not break laws trying to enforce them.
Dex Sinister
Member
187 blurted:
Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know how much of our, the taxpayer's, money the government spent on surveillance of the Weaver property by federal marshals, before the marshals screwed up and shot the dog and Weaver’s son? Look it up.
You might try to remember that the “crime†Weaver was accused of violating is simply and completely a tax statute, not a criminal law. There is no illegality in owning the gun Weaver sold, absent the fact that a transfer tax was not applied to the sale.
Let’s try to think objectively here: We’re talking about a statute that also forbids putting a butt-stock on a pistol, effectively tripling the pistol’s size, because then it would be a “short-barreled rifle,†and thus highly illegal.
Weaver may in fact be a thoroughly detestable human being, but the law is objectively moronic, and unless we are robots, we should attempt to distinguish between laws that have some objective moral purpose, and laws that criminalize otherwise innocent behavior [that's as in non-directly-harmful to others] before we randomly label people “criminals and cowards.â€
Dex
Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know how much of our, the taxpayer's, money the government spent on surveillance of the Weaver property by federal marshals, before the marshals screwed up and shot the dog and Weaver’s son? Look it up.
You might try to remember that the “crime†Weaver was accused of violating is simply and completely a tax statute, not a criminal law. There is no illegality in owning the gun Weaver sold, absent the fact that a transfer tax was not applied to the sale.
Let’s try to think objectively here: We’re talking about a statute that also forbids putting a butt-stock on a pistol, effectively tripling the pistol’s size, because then it would be a “short-barreled rifle,†and thus highly illegal.
Weaver may in fact be a thoroughly detestable human being, but the law is objectively moronic, and unless we are robots, we should attempt to distinguish between laws that have some objective moral purpose, and laws that criminalize otherwise innocent behavior [that's as in non-directly-harmful to others] before we randomly label people “criminals and cowards.â€
Dex
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Stickjockey
Member
Am I wrong or didn't he miss that court date because it was changed without his knowledge? I seem to remember something about that...
As I understand it, the shotgun barrel was 1/4" too short. This episode occurred over 1/4" of steel. That 1/4" wouldn't have caused that shotgun to be any more dangerous than it previously was. It posed no more of a threat than it previously did.
Yet in an effort to set an example a government agency went fully tactical against an isolated man and his family because they were probably considered easy targets.
This is totally inexcusable. Bill Clinton and Janet Reno should be in jail and/or exiled for this and for many other civil atrocities they have committed against this country, including supplying China with missile technology.
The government is the peoples worst enemy. The people have the power, I guess things just have to be bad enough for enought people to do something about it.
Yet in an effort to set an example a government agency went fully tactical against an isolated man and his family because they were probably considered easy targets.
This is totally inexcusable. Bill Clinton and Janet Reno should be in jail and/or exiled for this and for many other civil atrocities they have committed against this country, including supplying China with missile technology.
The government is the peoples worst enemy. The people have the power, I guess things just have to be bad enough for enought people to do something about it.
Wayne D
Member
The FBI was trying to catch Weaver at something they could hold over his head to turn him into an informant against his white supremacist friends. He didn't belong to any white supremacist groups (he was a white separatist, he didn't believe the races should live together, but thought the supremacists were too extreme) but he was sympathetic to them and knew many of the leaders. When another FBI informant tricked him into cutting a shotgun barrel off 1/4" too short, they thought they had him. He told them to go screw themselves so they charged him with sawing off the shotgun. He didn't show up for court and the government was out to get even with him. So they set up the expensive surveillance of him and his home that set the stage for the tragedy. Before you start flaming me for being a conspiracy nut, it is my understanding that this was the defense that Gerry Spence used to get Weaver acquitted of all the charges against him except for the failing to show up for court charge, which was the only thing Weaver was ever convicted of.
wun_8_seven
member
number one, weaver broke the law .no matter if you agree with it or not its the law. number two: the marshal's where there be cause a federal judge ordered them to arrest weaver, have you ever even seen a warrent? they say i here by command you to etc. etc. not if you think its a good idea to arrest him go a head. #3: the fbi was there because the marshals wrongly believed they were penned down. and the whole thing went to crap when some idiot change the rules of engagement.weaver had be informed by the local sherrif that the marshals had a warrent for his arrest and he refused to come down and face the music. 187
A coworker and I were discussing how it is that an evil dicatator (Saddam Hussein, in this example) manages to get into power in the first place. It is my position that evil takes office through creeping gradualism. By commiting incrementally greater atrocities, each more severe than the next, but still allowing the populace some reasonably justifiable excuse for not resisting. So it is that the tyrant rises until such point that resistance is no longer possible even if desired.
United States government officials executed U.S. citizens at Ruby Ridge, and went unpunished. What is OUR limit of tolerance for atrocities? At what point would we act?
Look here, honey. Its says in the newspaper that that SkunkApe guy was killed in a shootout with government agents. Oh well, they did find an arsenal in his basement. He criticized government's war in Iraq and was always typing a bunch of weird stuff on the internet. A real weirdo, that guy. Probably got what he deserved. What's for lunch?
United States government officials executed U.S. citizens at Ruby Ridge, and went unpunished. What is OUR limit of tolerance for atrocities? At what point would we act?
Look here, honey. Its says in the newspaper that that SkunkApe guy was killed in a shootout with government agents. Oh well, they did find an arsenal in his basement. He criticized government's war in Iraq and was always typing a bunch of weird stuff on the internet. A real weirdo, that guy. Probably got what he deserved. What's for lunch?
wun_8_seven
member
btw, the statement"the weavers never fired a shot" is false in the gun fight that occurred after the dog was shot both sam weaver and kevin haaris fired their weapons resulting in the death of a us marshal. 187
wun_8_seven
member
dex, the act of sawing off the barrel ie: illegaly altering the shotgun is a crime.besides selling it with out a stamp. 4thhorseman, weaver was shot opening a shed. the bullet that struck mrs. weaver first passed through kevin harris then hit weavers wife and killed her. so maybe you didn't learn as much as you thought. 187
4thHorseman
Member
187- "number two: the marshal's where there be cause a federal judge ordered them to arrest weaver, have you ever even seen a warrent?"
The marshalls were not there to serve a warrent. They were there for survallance. They were there illegally. 187,"no matter if you agree with it or not its the law." The court ruled on this.
Randy Weaver was never offered the option to surrender.
Randy Weaver never fired a shot. Sammy Weaver thought some one was shooting at his dog and at him. He shot in what he thought was self defense. He was right. It was his fathers property. "no matter if you agree with it or not its the law."
Just because you break the law, you do not deserve to be killed. ,"no matter if you agree with it or not its the law." - Fourth Ammendment
Weaver was opening the shed door to view his dead son's body that was shot two days before when he was shot in back shoulder by a FBI sniper.
http://www.i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/rrprosec.htm
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lynch082102.asp
The marshalls were not there to serve a warrent. They were there for survallance. They were there illegally. 187,"no matter if you agree with it or not its the law." The court ruled on this.
Randy Weaver was never offered the option to surrender.
Randy Weaver never fired a shot. Sammy Weaver thought some one was shooting at his dog and at him. He shot in what he thought was self defense. He was right. It was his fathers property. "no matter if you agree with it or not its the law."
Just because you break the law, you do not deserve to be killed. ,"no matter if you agree with it or not its the law." - Fourth Ammendment
Weaver was opening the shed door to view his dead son's body that was shot two days before when he was shot in back shoulder by a FBI sniper.
http://www.i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/rrprosec.htm
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lynch082102.asp
wun_8_seven
member
wrong again, the marshals were there with a warrant due to the failure to appear. wayned, the fbi weren't trying to do anything with weaver, they weren't involved at all till the marshal was shot. 187
4thHorseman
Member
In August 1992, six marshals travelled to an area in northern Idaho known as Ruby Ridge to conduct surveillance of the Weaver residence in preparation for the undercover operation. During the surveillance mission, the Weaver dog discovered the marshals and began to bark. The marshalsretreated with the dog, Harris, Randy Weaver and his son, SammyWeaver, and other family members in pursuit. At an area knownas the "Y," a gun battle occurred in which Deputy Marshal Deganand Sammy Weaver were killed.
http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby0.htm
http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby1.htm
http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby0.htm
http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby1.htm
Gmac
Member
Right on Skunkape!!!!!!! Law enforcement (especially federal) is out of control in this country! They now make their own rules----constitution? Bill of rights? What's that? Not wearing your seat belt will soon be grounds for immediate execution here in Ohio if the Highway Patrol has their way. They make the laws here, not the legislature. Don't think so? Read what Gov. Booby Daft had to say about ccw. I saw part of "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" the other night and it reinforced my distrust of any and all l.e./govt. entities. But I guess that since Randy Weaver broke the law that gave the feds.the right to assasinate his wife and son because after all IT'S THE LAW!!!If your lifestyle varies even slightly from what's considered the norm by the powers that be ( maybe you want to live away from "civilization" and just be left alone); nope can't be allowed. pretty soon other people would want their privacy/ freedom and we can't have that now can we? O.K. flame away!
Wayne D
Member
OK, it was the BATF that entrapped him, not the FBI. The fact remains the jury said it was entrapment and acquitted him of all charges but the failure to appear.
wun_8_seven
member
and your point? your link plainlly states a bench warrant was issued. the marshals were survailing him to find a way to arrest him without storming his house because they knew he was armed. bot that all blew up when the dog discovered them.as i state before it was a total [removed] but weaver was just as responsable as anyone. 187
edited by moderator for foul language
edited by moderator for foul language
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4thHorseman
Member
During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comme...lynch082102.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/comme...lynch082102.asp
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