Ruger Bisley Vaquero .45LC for self defense?

[cpirtle]

It wasn't that long ago that LEO's used single action revolvers for their jobs.

I think this is flawed logic. Police officers changed firearms dramatically because more and more frequently they were being out gunned.

As a well armed law abiding citizen we will rarely have the upper hand on a criminal intent on doing harm, and often will be outgunned with any pistol we may choose to carry.

Why start off knowing that the gun you choose to carry for self defense is at the bottom of the food chain in terms of rapid deployment, ease of firing and speed of firing?

 

[Murdock]

There's a parade, but it's gonna rain.

From Cooper on Handguns by Jeff Cooper, 1974:

"The Peacemaker was most definitely a service pistol in its day, but that day is past. Now it is purely a sporting weapon -- a plaything. Not that, in proper calibers, it cannot serve to stop an argument as well as it ever did, but it is no longer the first choice for that task. One can still sail across the Atlantic, but that is not what we do if merely crossing the Atlantic is our object. Likewise, we can still wear a Peacemaker for personal protection, but it is not a particularly good idea...I actually carried it in the early days of the Pacific action (on the advice of a still-active gun writer whose honesty I have reason to question) until I found out the hard way that the U.S. ordnance department knew more about the subject of fighting handguns than many people." (p. 157)

And:

".. I cannot deny that I am no great admirer of the Peacemaker, and this is not simply because I was frightened by one (my own) when I was a very junior officer. Trying to reload that relic quickly, in the dark, in the rain, in the mud, was a task I grew very tired of in one quick session." (p.158).

 

[Colt46]

Not too common

But, I got no problem with it. You will really need to practice a lot to become proficient enough with it to be taken seriously. Six ought to be enough for most defensive uses of a handgun. Given the fact that you probably won't be able to reload during an encounter, I'd say you need to be really good at getting in a quick, accurate shot on target.
I'd say you probably need to be an expert if you want to use one for defensive carry.
March is right. That .45 hollowpoint will probably be enough to end any encounter if you get it on target.

 

[johnmerry]

Why start off knowing that the gun you choose to carry for self defense is at the bottom of the food chain in terms of rapid deployment, ease of firing and speed of firing?
cpirtle is offline Report Post

Lets see a standard double action revolver holds 6 rounds and a single action holds 6 round. And as Jeff Cooper said," if you cannot do the job with six shots then you have already lost. Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, John Wooters, Jim Wilson, Mike Venturino,Skeeter Skelton and a whole lot more who have said that there is no other gun that can get the first shot off as quickly as a single action, if the gun is in capable hands. I also read that Bill Jordan the great double action shooter told Skeeter that the single action was the fastest gun for getting of the first shot. Now the interesting thing is that at least three of these gentleman were and are LEO,and the first shot is always the one that counts

 

[Richmond]

Vaquero

Lots of different views here.

For concealed carry, I use:

• 1911/variant: full size Colt, Kimber Ultra, BHP
• J Frame (the most frequent): 36, 637, 337
• and on some casual days: Vaquero Birdshead in 45LC, in the Mernicke concealed carry belt/holster rig.

Wearing jeans and a vest, this rig conceals well, and weight is not really significant in the fine Mernicke rig. I currently carry it with the Corbon 200g +P JHP. The Birdshead was sort of the concealed carry full power revolver of it's day, and it is a good compromise of portability, ease of concealment, and power in a single-action revolver.

 

[John C]

johnmerry;

I think the issue is, as you state, of being "in capable hands" versus average hands. Sure, Evil Roy, or whoever the national champion Cowboy shooter is, will be superior with a SA than perhaps any other revolver. Self defence is different than combat, with little likelihood of combat reload, so negating Cooper's main beef.

Few of us, though, are superior SA shooters. In average hands, the DA revolver or autopistol is superior.

I think the main reason I wouldn't carry a SA is the potential of ND when decocking. In times past, this wasn't as big of a deal if you cranked one off unintentionally, as long as no one was hit. Those days are long gone, at least where I live.

-John

 

[johnmerry]

Well JOHNC you are right A weapons is only as capable as the person useing it . I am, not talking about guys lik Munden Mcgivern or Keith. I am talking about average Joes. I carry a single action or a Double action everyday that I am not at the sweat shop, and I feel that i am proficient enough with them so I can at least scare those rascals

 

[Cosmoline]

Why start off knowing that the gun you choose to carry for self defense is at the bottom of the food chain in terms of rapid deployment, ease of firing and speed of firing?

Those factors are all a question of preference and training. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, nothing this side of a laser will beat a single action revolver on that first shot. Don't be fooled by appearances or prejudiced against "old fashioned" firearms.

While I agree it's gonna be tough to conceal a big Ruger, it's a fine handgun for self defense.

 

[Murdock]

Man, this thread really had me going!

Then I realized it was April 1st!

As if anybody would be serious about carrying a hawg leg for personal defense when actual weapons are available. Ha!

That's one on me, all right! I get sucked in every year.

 

[johnmerry]

Hey Murdock, I do believe Bob Munden scored very high in the bianci cup with single actions.

 

[Water-Man]

Cor-Bon 200 gr. JHP ammo is a good choice.

 

[mavracer]

I have a 4" birdshead vaquero 45 colt that I have carried on occasion.I use speer 250 golddots mostly from this user review I found on midways sight.

I use these with MMP sabots in my Knight Disc Elite muzzleloader and they consistently group 1" or better at 100 yards. I've also taken 10 deer with this bullet/sabot combination and the results on game are devastating. These bullets will literally rip a 2-3" diameter wound channel through any deer-sized game and to date, I have never had to track a single animal. All shots have also been complete pass-throughs and they leave baseball sized exit wounds. I would also imagine that they stay together because even though I've never recovered one, I've never found any copper or metal in any of the animals upon field dressing.

If I can't get out of trouble with this times 6 wasn't ment to be

 

[Murdock]

I've made up my mind.

Hey Murdock, I do believe Bob Munden scored very high in the bianci cup with single actions.

And I admire him for it. People choose to pedal bicycles across the Continental US also, and I admire them too. Both of those things take stamina and determination, and they chose a tougher path to follow than most of us.

After careful thought, I've decided to use my Browning Nomad 50# recurve bow for personal defense. I've practiced with it a lot, and have been using it since I was a kid, so I'm very comfortable with it and handling it is second nature. It's lightweight, and as long as I leave the house with it already strung I shouldn't have too much trouble getting an arrow nocked in a hurry. I can probably even leave it strung all the time, because the new materials in a modern recurve bow are so superior to natural materials. They just never wear out.

And the curves! Nothing has nicer swoops and curves than a recurved bow, except maybe a Las Vegas show girl. And it's a traditional classic. The sheer beauty of the bow will make we want to carry it a lot.

My quiver holds more than six arrows, and there won't be any legal hassle about where I carry it. And you just can't beat the depth and width of the permanent wound channel those 325 grain Snuffer broadheads make. The penetration is awesome. One arrow ought to do the job if I do mine, especially with a heart shot or CNS hit.

I'm able to put six broadheads in a 9-inch circle at 20 yards every time. And I don't use sights, as I'm strictly an instinct archer, which makes it really fast to acquire a threat and maintain tactical awareness. The English archers were able to consistently take on opponents -- some of them armed with crossbows -- out to 200 yards and beyond, so I don't see why I couldn't do the same with practice, and I know a lot of deer hunters who can't do that well. My bow should be perfect for defense.

And nobody's going to talk me out of it either.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

My very first carry weapon was a bi-quero in 45 colt.
After I bought it, I slicked it up on the advice of guys like Seyfried.

I felt just fine whether it was a black bear or rattler I had to deal with in the backwoods, or a bad guy on the street. I even brewed my own rounds with Hornady 350 grainers and a dose of H110.

If you want to carry one, make it happen. Just make sure you do your part and learn it back and forth. Like any carry weapon.

 

[Jim March]

Sigh. I don't do April Fools jokes. I are one. Just turned 42 .

 

[mavracer]

happy B-day Jim

 

[johnmerry]

Good for you Murdock. I have always felt that a little sarcasm is good every once in a while . Keeps you on your toes.

 

[JShirley]

The only issue I really have with using a single action for SD is reload time. I have been known to carry my 4 5/8" Blackhawk concealed.

On the other side of the equation, should you run out of ammo and the threat is close, a big 'ole Ruger to the side of the head might help your attacker(s) see the light.

John

 

[Richmond]

IWB

Murdock - may I suggest a good quality IWB holster for the Browning.

 

[mavracer]

On the other side of the equation, should you run out of ammo and the threat is close, a big 'ole Ruger to the side of the head might help your attacker(s) see the light.

I'm thinkin my vaquero would work way better at that than my M&P 340

 

[Harpo]

Yea, it's slow to reload. But can anyone here point out a single instance where an armed citizen lost a battle because he ran dry or couldn't reload fast enough?

Carry what you're comfortable with.

Harpo

 

[JShirley]

I mostly agree. I am aware of at least one situation where five adversaries confronted some citizens and attempted robbery. The fastest guy resolved things with a 1911.

There are no magic bullets, and even a .357 or .45 Colt may not instantly do the job. I'm not saying don't carry a single action. I am saying be prepared to do something else if you run dry and there are still bad guys in the fight.

John

 

[Blacksmoke]

I have carried a Ruger Vaquero (old model) .45 Colt with a 3.75 inch barrel concealed for years. I removed the ejector rod and housing in keeping with the original Colt Sheriff's Model and keep a case ejector tool in my shirt pocket with my pen. I like the Vaquero of concealed carry becuase it slides out of my trouser pocket easily with little to snag on material. The .45 Colt DPX Corbon 225 grain bullet should expand a whole bunch so penetration is limited. The cartridge has the proven knock-down power I need. With practice one can draw, point and cock fast enough. Notice I wrote- draw, point AND THEN cock. Safety, Safety, Safety. The traditional sixgun SA fighter method is draw and cock in one motion and then point. While I am drawing I am constantly evaluating the threat, I point and cock with the same movement. That gives me a beat to cancel out if the threat has been mis-evaluated or otherwise de-escalated. Otherwise, a cocked piece pointing at a person could have bad consequences.

As you can see, I err on the side of caution. I just hope that if I am ever under a genuine threat this pays off.

OK, a reasonable question is, "Why a SA for CCW?" Answer, nothing special. I just like the gun and feel comfortable with it.

 

[Sato Ord]

I carried a Vaquero in Colorado back in the day. Of course, back then, so many people carried openly that no one cared. I carried it the way I always carry, left hand holster on my right hip - cavalry draw. The thing to remember though, is that I was carrying openly. The Vaquero is certainly a wonderful handgun and I would never put it down and say it isn't up to the job of defense. Of course I have always fired my double actions in single action style because I fire more accurately that way (I pull to the right badly when I simply pull the trigger to cock the darn thing, and in over forty years of shooting I haven't been able to correct the damn problem. I don't see myself fixing this in the near future. My problem, not Smith and Wesson's or Ruger's).

Now all of that being said, the Vaquero is harder to conceal than those "Wheelies" made for for that purpose. As far as the bigger caliber being a bit overkill, you can load the thing any way you like with a little practice and a good press.

If I weren't getting my permit soon, and planned to continue to carry it in the car, I would see no reason not to keep a Vaquero on hand.

Just remember that practice is never an option with whatever you choose to carry, you need to do it often and on a regular schedule. Not just range practice either, you need to put some snap caps in and get used to drawing and cocking the weapon in a hurry. Remember to keep your finger off the trigger when drawing and thumbing the hammer or you could end up lighter in the rear quarter with an embarrassing injury.

Edited for P.S. Blacksmoke, I never even thought about a short barrel. My Vaquero was 5 and 3/4 inches with the ejector intact. I guess I got set my ways and didn't even think of altering from my original. Something to think about.

 

[Gary A]

After careful thought, I've decided to use my Browning Nomad 50# recurve bow for personal defense.

Good post, Murdock, and a good point. Still, the idea of being downrange of a man who knew how to shoot that recurve bow and who had a mind to hurt me would not leave me with a comfortable feeling. Obsolete in no way means ineffective. The first homicide was with a rock and rocks still work, too.