Ruger Cylinder Throats 45

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huntincowboy

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I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt and I am beginning to wonder if I should have the cylinders reamed. The accuracy in this pistol is terrible. I mean using an 8 inch diameter target at 25 yards free handed, I can't guarantee they will all fall into that circle :fire: At first I thought I was just a bad shot, but after having shot several other pistols (45 ACP and 45 Colt so other than being a different guns they have similar recoils and such) with actual groupings of less than 3 inches at the same range, I'm beginning to think it's the gun. I don't have any tools other than calipers to check diameter with, which I know are not really accurate enough. I used them and got .450 in all cylinders except one that was .448. I reload so I took a jacketed bullet that is .452 and pushed it into the cylinder from the end you would insert a loaded round into and then used a pencil to push the bullet through. It was very hard to push through all throats, but I was able to push through using only arm strength. They did not "fall through". Do you guys think I need to look at having the cylinders reamed or have any suggestions on how to measure more accurately with what I have?
 
I took a jacketed bullet that is .452 and pushed it into the cylinder from the end you would insert a loaded round into and then used a pencil to push the bullet through. It was very hard to push through all throats, but I was able to push through using only arm strength. They did not "fall through".
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The throats sound about right, IMO. The bullet shouldn't fall through, but should need a bit of a push.

Could be the bore is a bit oversized, or maybe there's a bit of a constriction where the barrel & frame meet. Check the crown, too. Also check to be sure each chamber is perfectly lining up with the barrel.
 
Could be the bore is a bit oversized, or maybe there's a bit of a constriction where the barrel & frame meet. Check the crown, too. Also check to be sure each chamber is perfectly lining up with the barrel.
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I don't think it is oversized, I cast bullets too and I had one I hadn't resized at .453" and it could not be forced through by hand. I'm not sure how to check for constrictions or if the barrel is "perfectly" lined up other than if it throws lead out the side when shooting, and it doesn't.
 
I don't think it is oversized, I cast bullets too and I had one I hadn't resized at .453" and it could not be forced through by hand. I'm not sure how to check for constrictions or if the barrel is "perfectly" lined up other than if it throws lead out the side when shooting, and it doesn't.
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Is this gun more accurate with cast loads?

I'd slug the barrel and throats to get some hard numbers. Since I'm no gunsmith, I'd recommend going online for some help on slugging.

Ideally, you'd want the throats about a thousandth bigger than the groove diameter of the barrel. AFAIK, jacketed bullets run about the groove diameter of the bore, so slugging ought to produce a groove diameter no greater than 0.452". The diameter of the throat shouldn't be smaller than this, but not much larger, either, since it stabilizes the bullet before entering the forcing cone.

As to a constriction in the barrel, feel for increased resistance as the slug gets close to the forcing cone area.

To check for chamber alignment, the quickest and easiest is to first triple-check that the gun's unloaded, then look down the barrel with a light illuminating the rear of the cylinder. Check all the chambers - you shouldn't see any of them asymmetrically skewed relative to the bore.

Again, I'm no gunsmith, so hopefully someone will jump in if i got anything wrong. :eek:
 
My Ruger Vaquero 45, had undersized cylinder throats. They were on the order of .450" I used a hone to slowly resize them to .4515" Mostly I noticed it in trying to insert a 270+ grain Keith style bullet sized to .452". The off the shelf 255 grain bullets dropped in fine.
Word was, Ruger undersizes most all their throats.
 
My cast bullets don't want to go through at all. They are the lee 452-255 and drop at 260 grains I then size them to .452 with the lee die. I have had some that do not want to go in as a loaded shell in my gun. That was the first I thought I may have had undersized throats.

Everything I've read says Ruger 45's are especially bad with this and that you should have them reamed to .4525 to use .452 bullets
 
I took a jacketed bullet that is .452 and pushed it into the cylinder from the end you would insert a loaded round into and then used a pencil to push the bullet through. It was very hard to push through all throats, but I was able to push through using only arm strength.
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You sure it wasn't a .451 FMJ? FMJs are pretty tough, so that you were able to push a .452 FMJ through by hand suggested to me the throats are pretty close to .452.

Honestly, your safest bet is to have a gunsmith check the gun out.
 
You sure it wasn't a .451 FMJ?
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It was a 250 gr Hornady XTP .452". I checked diameter and weight because I have some other XTP bullets too. But it wasn't a breeze to push through. I had to get on it with my arms not just hand pressure. The sized cast bullets do have tumble lube on them and I can imagine that the lube coating could put them a tad over .452 where the jacketed bullets would have no coating to make them any wider.
 
You could just call Ruger CS and see what they say. You might be out your gun for a couple weeks, but they usually take care of folks.
 
huntingcowboy Do you conceder your self a skill handgun shooter. Placeing all rounds free hand at 25 yards in a 8" circle is better than average if you could do that with other handguns.

Set down at a bench and useing sand bags see what your revolver will do. Also ask several buddies to try it shooting. You may find it will place them inside 3" or even 2" circles and could be just skill level issues. Now you maybe a world class shooter too.
 
huntingcowboy Do you conceder your self a skill handgun shooter
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No more than average, but just having shot three other guns (1911, a Judge, and a 357 python) much better at similar distances, I am looking at the gun. I plan on getting my bags out tomorrow and testing to take out the factor of shooter but I am able to place most of the shots from my stock Taurus 1911 to where they consistently punch a hole a little larger than the size of a fist (there are flyers but within a cirlce smaller than the ruger) in the paper where the Blackhawk is kinda all over the place and not really grouping. In that large cirlce they could be located anywhere and no two are ever really very close.
 
You could just call Ruger CS and see what they say
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I've read where several other people have done this with cylinder throats of .447-.449 and Ruger told them that those sizes were within tolerance. You never know, they may fix it.
 
A ruger single action trigger tqkes some getting used to, compared to the other fire arms you referenced. 8 inches free hand at 25 yards with new type of pitol is very good. Perhaps dry fire it alot till front site doesn't move. Another consideration may be the specific load you are using, handload or factory? I wish my Rugers would pass a .452 (or .451 for that matter), but they don't and are still very accurate with jacketed rounds, or .452 lead.

Every time i go back to the Rugers, it takes some getting used to for consistent grip (hand position) and trigger pull.
 
a6b60393-9187-8f45.jpg

This is a picture of 24 shots sandbag rested at 12 yards using 260 gr cast bullets over a load of 231 for ~850 fps. At that range with bags I feel like it should be much tighter. I mean if I can only shoot half as good as bagged then every shot isn't going to hit the box I have it stapled to.
 

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robhof

My son's BH45 had the same problem and the throats miked slightly smaller than your's and Ruger said they were within tolerances, well I sent the cylinder to Cylindersmith and have been happy ever since, bench groups at between 2" and 3" as opposed to 8"+before. I picked up a 45acp cylinder for it and it split the cases upon firing, checked the throats and sure enough, couldn't even push a .450 jacketed slug through, sent it in and it shoots as well as the LC cylinder now.
 
If you can push a .452 jacketed slug through at all, then they are not undersize like mine were (.450"). Mine still shot 2" groups at 25 yards off a rest with the undersized throats, though.

I'd look at two things first. Crown, and forcing cone. Some folks have found that recutting and squaring the forcing cone cut their group sizes in half, or more if it was really bad.

That pie plate pattern could definitely be caused by a ding in the crown, too.

Definitely send it back to Ruger, though.
 
huntincowboy,

I have owned 5 Old Model Vaqueros. One was a 44-40. Barrel .429, cylinders .425. The gun was AWEFUL. I then got a 44 mag. Never measured the dimensions, it was fairly accurate but shot low and I had to file the front sight. For what ever reason (I can't remember), I traded that gun.

Then somehow I ended up with 3 45's. One a 4 5/8", 5 1/2" and a 7 1/2". The two shorter guns were aweful. They gave me groups like what you have, but off a rest. I never measured the dimensions but I do know I could not push a .452 bullet through either cylinder. So I got rid of both guns. Then this past winter I had a chance to buy that 7 1/2" REAL CHEAP, so I did. Once again, I cannot push a .452 bullet throuth the cylinder. The gun is accurate enough for plinking out to 15 yards or so, but beyond that the grouping really opens up.

I have a Ruger Super Redhawk 454 coming. When it arrives, the first thing I'm going to is see if I can push a .452 bullet through. I think most folks know that Ruger, at least at one time, under sized their cylinders for the 45. I have heard that their newer 45's no longer have that problem, but I do not know if that is true.

I know that a proper sized reamer can be purchased through Brownells for $80 or so, it's just frustrating to spend a ton of money on a firearm and still have to spend more to fix a problem that shouldn't exsist in the first place.

It's just sad that two American gun manufactures such as Colt (over sized) and Ruger (undersized) can't get the 45 colt right. I keep reading and hearing outstanding things about Freedom Arms. If that Super Redhawk doesn't pass inspection, I might just decide to save up my lunch money, as well as sell a Colt and Ruger for a Freedom Arms.

Good luck with your dilema and hope you have a succesful hunting season. Keep us posted.
 
So I took my sized cast bullets and tried to push them through. Only one throat accepted the bullet the others got stuck and required a hammer to push back out. I'm going to load some jacketed and see if the group the same. May help to single out some of the issues
 
Howdy

First off, holding a revolver freehand and shooting at a target 25 yards away is not a very good way to determine how accurate a pistol is. I know, everybody will say you should test it as you are going to shoot it, but that means you are including how well you can hold steady on the target in the test.

If you want to determine how accurate the gun is, without the human element, then remove the human. That is what a Ransom Rest is for. It clamps the gun in place, always recoils the exact same amount, and returns the gun to the same position for every shot. If you want to determine how accurate the gun is, forget holding it waving around at the end of your arm.

Without a Ransom Rest, the best you can do is shoot it from sandbags. Prop up some sandbags on a bench and sit down. Adjust the height of the chair and sandbags so that you can sight the revolver comfortably, do not crane your neck to see the sights. Whether you rest the butt of the gun on the bags or the frame or the barrel does not really matter. The point is consistency. Hold the gun exactly the same for each shot so that it recoils the same for each shot. Pull the trigger gently and consistently. Do all that, and you will find out how accurate the gun is, not how well you can hold on target. Remember, don't try to adjust your point of aim. You are not sighting the gun in, you are simply seeing where it prints shot after shot.

Regarding the throat size. You should not have to shove hard to get a bullet through the chamber throats. The correct sized bullet should slide through with minimum effort, you should be able to push it through with a pencil.

Here is the test I always tell folks to use. Remove the cylinder and point it at the ground. Drop a bullet into a chamber. It should hang up in the chamber throat. It should not fall right through. If it falls right through the bullet is too small for the chamber. If you have to shove it hard, it is too big. The correct sized bullet should just hang up in the chamber throat, and you should be able to push it through with a pencil.

I always suggest that for 45 Colt you perform this test with both .452 and .454 bullets, but you have already determined that .452 bullets are too big for your chamber throats.

45 Colt rifling has been standardized at .451 for a long, long time now, since about 1956. You could slug your barrel to make sure that the barrel grooves are .451 in diameter, but most revolver manufacturers these days are pretty good at keeping 45 Colt to .451. 44-40 is a different story.

The correct size bullet for any revolver works backwards from the barrel rifling groove dimension. Given that 45 Colt s usually .451, the correct lead bullet for that rifling will be .001 oversize, or .452. Then working backwards, the correct chamber throat for that .452 bullet will be just big enough that the bullet hangs up as I described. Somewhere between .452 and .453 will be ideal, allowing the bullet to slip through without allowing hot gasses to escape around the bullet. Hot gasses escaping around the bullet are a major cause of leading in the barrel because the hot gasses soften the sides of he bullet.

It sounds to me like your chamber throats are a bit tight. Measuring with a caliper is not a very accurate way to determine cylinder throat size, as you seem to realize. The tiny flats on the points of the caliper render readings of relatively small holes inaccurate. You could invest in some plug gauges to determine exactly what size your chambers are, and invest in a chamber reamer too.

Or you might want to give these guys a call.


http://www.cylindersmith.com/
 
Driftwood

I don't have access to a Ransom vice but I did shoot the group in the picture as consistently as possible from sandbag rests at 12 yards. I am pretty sure at this point that I'm going to get in touch with cylindersmith and have the throats reamed. My cast bullets are sized to 452 but seem to be bigger than the 452 xtp bullets as they will not go into my chambers.
 
My first 45 Colt was a Ruger Bisley and it had 2 problems,first chamber throats .449-.450 and a constriction where the barrel is screwed into the frame. Had the throats opened to
.453 and the barrel well was a bit of a challange. Bought a fire lap kit from LBT and followed the instructions,before the firelaping the bore had quite a few rough spots. After the firelaping bore is like glass and .4515. Oddly enough my Redhawk in 45 Colt had the chamber mouths cut to the correct dimensions. Had a Colt Anaconda whose chamber mouths were .455 had a hard time getting that pistol to shoot well.
 
Well I got the cylinder back this week and decided to go shoot it today. Much better. The two high are from a different range. The main center group is off hand at 15 yards. Compare that to the bagged at 12 earlier in the thread! uploadfromtaptalk1343515924136.jpg
 
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