Ruger Old Army (ROA) loaded at a higher level

[Onty]

CAUTION: This thread includes loading data and/or links for loading data beyond currently published maximums for this firearm. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Hi folks, first time here and my apology for a bit longer post, but I hope you will find it interesting, and eventually develop into fruitful discussion. Before posting this, I searched threads here on THR, but I did not find much. Please, feel free to post the link if I missed something.

I am gearing for my first ROA (still looking for one, hard to find it up here), and started looking on internet bit more about ROA and BP revolvers in general. I found that vast majority of shooters are shooting lead balls, and there are plenty of loads for this type of bullet. Considering how strong is ROA, I always felt that this revolver is capable of more powerful loads, much more useful as a backup firearm in the field. After reading this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34668 I became curious did anybody loaded ROA with heavier bullet than round ball, on the level that will come close to the original load of grand, old 45 Colt. IMO, heavier bullet than a ball is much more useful, and does not loose velocity so rapidly. After further search, I found this quite intriguing thread, showing that ROA could shoot some interesting loads; http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=113059 , here is video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQVu3d3NpxU . Now, we are talking about decent power level. Also, I stumbled upon this thread http://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/2414-performance-excellence-ruger-old-army.html where Marshall Stanton proposed new bullet design.

After scratching my head, and several ˝what if˝, I decided to see what kind of bullet I can design, trying to incorporate features from several different designs creating some new bullets.

One note; since my intention is to have a heavier bullet than round ball, that will generate more recoil, I came to conclusion that bullet should be designed to have a tight fit along more surface than round ball provides. Existing bullet loading opening on ROA will be too small, and ramming forces are just too high for ROA lever, so some kind of loading press is in order.

Anyhow, here are the bullets I consider as a good starting point;

Lee REAL http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Black-Powder-REAL-Bullet-and-Combo-Molds/ and Dick Dastardly DD/PUK/ROA-II Big Lube®LLC 210 grain http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982 .

First, I made few designs that are basically SWC with multiple driving bands;

Proposal No. 1:

Dia (as cast): .458˝
OAL: .655˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band (ea.): .026˝
Weight (using WW): 260 grains



Proposal No. 2, with wider front band:

Dia (as cast): .458˝
OAL: .634˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving band, rest (ea.): .025˝
Weight (using WW): 250 grains




Here is proposal No. 3: ROA-260-DG (dual groove)

Dia (as cast): .457˝
OAL: .654˝
Meplat dia: .360˝
Driving band, front: .080˝
Driving bands, rest (ea.): .070 2-nd, .075 3rd
Weight (using WW): 260 grains



This last one is essentially LBT-WFN with 2 grease grooves. The grooves are designed large enough to accept standard O-ring for 7/16 bore. Idea is to get better friction to prevent bullet from moving forward due heavier recoil and heavier bullet, and in the same time seal the chamber to prevent moisture from getting in, as well as cross/chain fire. Also, another combination is to have one groove packed with grease, and another with O-ring. These O-rings are inexpensive, about 2 cents each and could be ordered from several sources.

Please, take a look and let me know what do you think. If there is enough interest for a new design(s), and we have close to 20 potential customers, we can start group buy (GB) for the new mould.

Cheers, Onty.

 

[arcticap]

THR member mec wrote a review about the 190 grain .457 Buffalo Bullets that can be found on the Dixie Gun Works website. I think that it's worth noting that he found that their accuracy was the closest to the round ball while delivering a lot of foot pounds.
And Buffalo Bullets is now back in business with some bullet sizes being sold at Cabela's:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...780?WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat104701680

Buffalo Bullet is back in buisness contact your local gun shops for details Ron Dahlitz has moved his company to Los Angeles Ca phone number is 323-585-5058 ext 223 thanks

BT1201 Buffalo Bullets-Conical Black Powder Pistol Bullet .45 Caliber Reviews

Product: BT1201 Buffalo Bullets-Conical Black Powder Pistol Bullet .45 Caliber
From: mike cumpston
Date: Saturday 30 April, 2005

Review:

This is a 190 grain swaged bullet with cupped base and a hatch-mark bullet retention pattern on the bearing surface. They are coated with some sort of lubricant- probably moly. The nose is rounded like a ball to gain optimum fit to loading rams the base is rebated to allow the bullets to seat in the chambers. Seating is in a straight line with no more distortion than desirable and the same for all bullets.

This one is sized .457 and should work in Ubert Chambers-Possibly a bit large for pietta but will likely work in those too. I ordered them for the Ruger Old Army- a revolver set up around .457" balls and bullets. They loaded in a straight line and the optimum load provided a five shot group of 1.8" at 60 feet. Best consistency among loads tested was identical volume of Hodgdon's H777 to 40 grains of black powder.
Chronographed velocity/ calculated energy was:

40Gr./Vol. H 777 1066 fps 51fps spread 479ft/lbs

Other combinations provided good accuracy but larger extreme spreads. These bullets in both this diameter and 36 are as accurate or almost as accurate as round ball and provide optimum downrange energy

Rating: [5 of 5 Stars!]

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/produc...22_99_311_313&products_id=3631&reviews_id=566

 

[Onty]

Thanks for this link. I would prefer to cast my own and would like to have heavier bullets, with larger meplat dia as Marshall Stanton suggested. I am also consider getting Lee REAL 250 gr mold and opening meplate to something like .300-.320. As for mold, I would love to have one of those made from brass. There are custom mold makers, making top quality products, and when group buy is organized, we can get a quite good deal.

 

[MCgunner]

I got quite a bit more out of a 220 and 35 grains 777 than he did (full charge compressed) My Chrony was reading over 1300 fps, normally get around 950 with Pyrodex. Anyway, can't get much more due to the bullets pulling on recoil enough to start tying up the cylinder after 3 or 4 shots. For hunting, I would use this load, but I don't hunt with the ROA. I usually cut the charge way back for range play. Recoil is such, the checkered faux ivory grips I have on it hurt the hand. I need to put another grip on it if I'm going to shoot that charge much, but I really ain't. Nice to know the gun will perform that well, though, eh?

I have one of the old Lee hollow point molds, 220 grain conical, for my ROA, but the hollow cavity is kinda small. Not sure it's worth much other than it helps me identify which conicals are for my Colt/Remmy .44 and which are .457 for the ROA. They shoot well enough.

 

[Onty]

I got quite a bit more out of a 220 and 35 grains 777 than he did (full charge compressed) My Chrony was reading over 1300 fps, normally get around 950 with Pyrodex. Anyway, can't get much more due to the bullets pulling on recoil enough to start tying up the cylinder after 3 or 4 shots. For hunting, I would use this load, but I don't hunt with the ROA. I usually cut the charge way back for range play. Recoil is such, the checkered faux ivory grips I have on it hurt the hand. I need to put another grip on it if I'm going to shoot that charge much, but I really ain't. Nice to know the gun will perform that well, though, eh?

I have one of the old Lee hollow point molds, 220 grain conical, for my ROA, but the hollow cavity is kinda small. Not sure it's worth much other than it helps me identify which conicals are for my Colt/Remmy .44 and which are .457 for the ROA. They shoot well enough.

This is just amazing, you are actually getting 41 magnum power level. Yes, I am aware of the problem bullets moving forward, that is the reason I would like to have much more contact surface between bullet and cylinder wall than REAL does, and for a same reason I proposed bullet with grease groove deep enough to accommodate at least one O-ring. One option is to load some of those SWC or LBT style bullets, but, in most cases, even ˝as cast˝ they will have to be bumped up because of the larger ROA chambers.

Now, the problem is how to load them straight. One solution is to get one of those bevel base bullets, or make a bumping die with reduced bottom dia, about .030-.060 long that will center the bullet before pressing it in. Other solution is to make on a cylinder chambers small chamfer or even small counterbore, something similar in shape when reloading cases using Lyman ˝M˝ die. Some folks claim that any modification of the cylinder mouth will ruin accuracy. I have filling that it wouldn't, as long as it's done properly, with same depth and dia on all chambers.


As for recoil, I would love to fit Bisley grip, prefer it on SA over any other, not just because for heavy recoiling loads.

 

[arcticap]

Why use "O rings" when driving bands can be designed right into the mold?

I can't see how chamfering the chamber mouths would be desirable, especially just to fit a custom molded bullet that hasn't been tested.

It would be easier to design the bullet to fit than to require that an ROA chamber be permanently altered.

In the past, there was another custom C&B bullet that had a reduced diameter base to easily load straight into the chamber up to where the driving bands began.

 

[MCgunner]

Is it LBT that will make a mold to customer's design request? One of the bullet mold makers does this and LBT comes to my feeble mind. Been a while since I was lookin' at stuff like that, though.

Here's their site, googled it. http://www.lbtmoulds.com/

 

[PapaG]

With my original Old Army came the note from Ruger, Bill that is as I was one of several priveleged to shoot the prototype at Friendship, that you could stuff all the 4Fg in it you wanted to.
I did so with a round ball and got 1150 fps. Better than a +P 38, way better than a nine, and with pure lead.
I've shot the Lyman 450225 hbswc and the Lee mould bullet for the Rem and while both shot fairly well, neither grouped like a round ball.

 

[MCgunner]

I did so with a round ball and got 1150 fps. Better than a +P 38, way better than a nine

Well, one squabble with that, 9 pushes a 115 grain JHP to over 1100 fps and +P to over 1300 fps, way more than a .38 +P. But, hey, the ROA is the issue here. The guns are strong, that's for sure. I wouldn't go stuffin' anything, but BP or a marketed substitute, best of which is 777 IMHO, but they'll take as much as you can cram in a cylinder and laugh at it.

 

[Lunie]

I'm guessing he was comparing the (subsonic) 9mm 147 grain rounds to the ~141 grain .457 LRB travelling at a higher velocity.

 

[andrewstorm]

r o a bullits

Hornady 255 gr cowboy bullets work great in my roa ,and no leading or very little,these are .455 dia and ruger recomends a.454 conical,they shoot as acurate as can be,the range master was amazed at my marksmanship,and is now looking for his own r o a p.s. the story goue,bill rugrer tested the prototype r o a with chambers full of bullseye smokeless powder,under a rb,to everyones surprize it held up to the test and was deemed idiot proof

 

[Lunie]

Hornady 255 gr cowboy bullets work great in my roa ,and no leading or very little,these are .455 dia and ruger recomends a.454 conical,they shoot as acurate as can be,the range master was amazed at my marksmanship,and is now looking for his own r o a p.s. the story goue,bill rugrer tested the prototype r o a with chambers full of bullseye smokeless powder,under a rb,to everyones surprize it held up to the test and was deemed idiot proof

Dear Lord...
Chambers full of Bullseye? Really?!?!?!?

I measured out ~40 gr by volume. The actual weight is 19 grains.

That much BE is more than a triple the MAX charge for .45 ACP. It would overflow the case.

It's more than double the MAX charge for the "Ruger Only!" .45 Colt loads. It would compress the powder to seat a bullet atop that mound of powder.




Bluntly, the "cylinders full of bullseye" fails the common sense test.
KABOOOOOM!!!!

 

[MCgunner]

That's a rumor I never believed, the bullseye thing. Had he said 2400 or 296 or something, I might think it might be possible, but Bullseye? Nah.

I'm guessing he was comparing the (subsonic) 9mm 147 grain rounds to the ~141 grain .457 LRB travelling at a higher velocity.

Okay, yeah, the 147 grain 9 is pretty pathetic. I can understand that comparison. Yet, there are those "big bullet or bust" folks that insist it's the best load in a 9. Go figure. Me, if i were to use the ROA for defense or hunting, I'd shoot the 220 grain conical, I think. I use a .457 conical in mine as a .454 don't shave much lead. My .454s are for my colts and my new Remmy if the damned thing ever gets here.

 

[BCRider]

I tend to think BS on the Bullseye as well. But consider this; being compressed due to the full load the powder would only burn from the rear of the cylinder forward. So the actual surface area of the burn wave would be limited. The first part of the burn would push the rest of the charge forward and even with the fast burn rate of the Bullseye it's likely that a good portion of the powder would not actually burn until outside of the barrel.

Still, if the story is true and even if only half or a bit more actually burned in the chamber and barrel it shows how strong the gun is. Musta been one HELLUVA fireball too...

 

[Lunie]

Bullseye is already a very fast-burning powder. It only burns faster as pressure rises... I'd imagine the pressure would be relieved much more significantly from the cylinder rupture than it would from unburned powder escaping from the muzzle.

 

[andrewstorm]

b s ?

Ive spoken with a ruger representitive and he told me it was indeed true,he also stated it was the prototype,as no others were subsequently proofed".........call em yerself iffn you bont belive it,

 

[robhof]

I have a book: Black Powder Revolvers-Reproductions & Replicas by Dennis Adler that also quotes Ruger as stating the gun was proofed with Bullseye. but warns the public to not try it, and not use any modern powder in any B/p revolver.

 

[Lunie]

I may call them, but I suspect there is a big difference in "Proofed with X amount of Bullseye" and "Proofed with cylinders FULL of >20gr of Bullseye."

Because, bluntly, IMO that should be enough BE to destroy a modern smokeless gun, much less one intended for BP only.

 

[J-Bar]

I understand the joys of tinkering and experimenting, most of the time. But I don't get this one.

If one wants .41 Mag. or .454 Casull performance, why not get a gun in that caliber?

I own 4 Old Armies. I love them for what they are - wonderfully precise and accurate blackpowder guns. Why take a silk purse and try to make a sow's ear out of it? Where is the joy in risking damage to a fine gun, or to one's self and companions?

Honest, I am not trying to be offensive, and I apologize in advance for any that might be taken. I simply don't get it.

 

[rdstrain49]

J-Bar:

Yep!

 

[AbitNutz]

I just stuff a deepened (or use a Classicballistx) cylinder full of triple 7 and top it with a hollow pointed (by Hollow Point Bullet Mold Service) DD/PUK/ROA-II 45-210 RNFP BigLube bullet. Then touch it off with RWS 1075+'s caps. I use Blomquist or Treso nipples.

Lee's gunsmithing did their action job, removed warning label from barrel, opened up forcing cone, refaced the barrel and put in a Lee's hammer and trigger spring.

I had Clement put in one of his Bisley hammers and bevel and serrate the front sight. It also sports a Power Custom billet stainless Colt grip frame and incredible blind screw custom grips by Paul Pesinger. The trigger and hammer have been shimmed using "trigger shims". No trigger or hammer wiggle what so ever. I also use a Banana River Outfitters cool brass tipped rams for short loads.

It can just flat roar! It's accurate, beautiful, powerful and just wicked. Or it's just warm and fuzzy. It's whatever I choose. I use a D/D loader to great satisfaction.

This is by far my favorite pistol of any kind....sorry if drone on but but I just can't help it. I can shoot any combination of powder, ball or bullet with nothing but excellent results and a smile on my face.

 

[Vermonter]

"This is by far my favorite pistol of any kind"

+1 to that! I love mine. It's really fun to play with different loads right there in the field.

 

[Onty]

Why use "O rings" when driving bands can be designed right into the mold?

I can't see how chamfering the chamber mouths would be desirable, especially just to fit a custom molded bullet that hasn't been tested.

It would be easier to design the bullet to fit than to require that an ROA chamber be permanently altered.

In the past, there was another custom C&B bullet that had a reduced diameter base to easily load straight into the chamber up to where the driving bands began.

My apology for not making better description.

As for grease grooves, they are generous so they could hold considerable amount of lubricant, essential for BP guns, according to number of sources. See this picture from http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982




All 3 driving bands are larger than ROA chamber, so once bullet is pressed, in all three will make contact with chamber wall. I am quite confident that when bullets are cast from WW, they will have better friction than from pure lead. As for designing bullet to fit the cylinder, if you look closely the bottom of the bullet, you will see change in dia. That portion is designed to be few thousands smaller than ROA camber, so it will work as a pilot, guiding bullet while pressed in. In that case, no cylinder modification like chamfering or counter boring is required.



Regarding purpose of O-ring(s), idea was to make grease grooves large enough so it could be used, if desired, to provide 100% sealing, and make additional friction with the chamber wall.

Regards, Onty.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

a shooting buddy and I were camped out some years back. I had my s/s ROA loaded w/a full charge of 4F under a Lee mold slug (220gr I think it is)
we were shooting into jack pine saplings - he had his S&W .357 4" with 125gr jsp. my ROA would blow out the back of pines that stopped the .357, splintering the backside noticeably, if not knocking out a chunk.

 

[Omnivore]

Back in the 1860s, the use of conicals of up to 250 grains in .44 percussion revolvers was fairly common. Several companies supplied "consumable envelope cartridges" for the U.S. government during the war, and as far as I've been able to tell they all used conical bullets.

Lee and Buffalo Arms sell conical molds for percussion revolvers. They have a heeled base that slips into the chamber for a good start. Flat base .45 bullets are a pain to get started.

As stated, the Buffalo (different company) BallEt is good too. And here is something to chew on; the revolver's loading ram will tend to reform the soft lead bullet nose to the shape of a round ball. The BallEt starts off with that shape already, and the Lee is pretty close.

I've been using the Lee 200 grain conical mold for a while, with a '58 Remington repro. Almost as accurate as round ball. Lee makes a slightly larger mold for the Ruger's larger chamber dia. Interestingly; I got more velocity with the Buffalo 180 grain BallEt than with a round ball, using the same charge. The BallEt went sonic at just over 1100 from the Remington's 8" bbl. Here's a write-up on the experience. I'm not sure how much you could stuff into an ROA, but 30 grains FFF and a 180 or 200 grain bullet is right in the range of normal .40 S&W loads and getting close to average .45 Colt loads already.