S&W 360PD AirLite + UberHot .357 load = Suicide?

[PackingHeat]

I recently aquired a 360PD AirLite in a trade and should be taking it to the range for the first time soon. I am familiar with all the discussions here about it being like shaking hands with the devil when firing .357 mags. I bought the lightest .38 specials I could find (UMC) to use for practice and on impulse tossed in a few boxes of the cheapest .357 mags I could find. These just so happen to be Armscor. I just checked the specs for these
125 gr. soft points and they list the muzzle velocity as 1775 fps with muzzle energy at 874 ft./lbs. These sound like loads everyone says the factories don't make anymore. These are "hotter than hot" by todays standards. I know Armscor ammo is supposed to be dirty and have a lot of muzzle flash but I figured it would o.k. to put some thru a revolver so please don't give me lectures on the crappy ammo. I knew its shortcomings when I bought it.

1) Should I even consider firing these in my 360PD or is this suicide? (I have this strange urge to try at least one)

2) What do you other AirLite shooters recommend as a reasonable (recoil wise) .357 self defense load for this gun? There are no .38 sp. +P rounds that meet my minimum requirements for self defense so please don't recommend any for this post.

3) What grips will absorb the most recoil?

4) What is the hottest load you have ever been brave enough to try in one of these and what was the extent of your injury?

 

[outfieldjack]

I have a 340pd...

Those loads sound alot bigger than anything I have put thru mine... make sure to take alot of pics when you are at the range!!!!!

 

[Sean Smith]

Might want to actually shoot that thing with magnums first before saying "magnums or bust!"

For more punch than .38 Special +P, but less than the all-out magnums, you might want to consider the Remington Golden Saber 125gr (1,220 ft/sec from 4" barrel) or Pro Load 125gr "Tactical Lite" load (1,125 ft/sec from 4" barrel).

 

[000Buck]

Those Armscor sound like WAY too much to even try once. I have a 340PD and carry Hydrashok 357 in it since Hydrashok are loaded pretty light compared to other brands. I have shot around 20 rds of Corbon 125gr 357 in it, and it is a bit too much. The Hydrashoks are much more managable.

After the Corbons made my hand hurt for over a week, I wouldnt shoot those Armscor on a dare even. I could see those actually hurting your hand seriously if they are really 1775fps out of anything.

 

[grendelbane]

As I get older, (I will turn 48 next month), I find that the really hard kicking pistols hurt me more and more.

I did not plan for this.

I think I now understand why all the top pistolero experts back in the '30s thought that the .357 mag kicked. With the exception of Elmer Keith, most of them were older. With the poor stocks of the period, it is no wonder they thought those loads kicked hard. Pachmayr makes a world of difference!

I wish S&W would bring back the old model 58. Or, even a 658. That was about the best balance between manageable power, and an old man's recoil sensitive hands I have ever seen.

Mathematically, it comes out somewhere around 5 ftlbs of kinetic energy, if you want to do the math.

 

[Gordon]

I would not shoot those things in the 360. I'm no wimp I sighted my buddy's 360 3,25" in with 180 grain partition gold for bears, and it HURT! I would use the 145grain Winchester Silvertip for self defense, while stout they are a little more moderate and less flashy than the 125grain full throttle loads. The 110grain .357Mag loads would prolly work OK too., out of a short barrel. Personnally for full throtle .357 loads the 2.5" model 19 or my 2" Colt Lawman are the smallest, lightestt I'd carry. I have airwieght snubs but they are .38 special and there IS a big difference!

 

[mec]

That ammunition sounds like gunwriter loads from the 1960s. Here's what several CorBon loads did from a 2.25" SP101- note the velocity from the 4" Gp with the 125 jhp. Quite a bit lower than the loads you mention and CorBon doesn't load light.

 

[ChristopherG]

Your question--suicidal?--can be answered in the negative. But you will probably find that you do not have any wish to shoot these ubermagnums if you take the judicious course of working your way up from 38 to 38+P to mid-range 357 and full-power 357. It would not be a slur on your manhood if you didn't get that far.

The other question is on grips. Pachmayr compacs are, hands down, the best way to make an airlite shootable with magnum loads (NOT compac 'professionals', which don't cover the backstrap. Get yourself a little rubber between you and the backstrap of the beast, and a better handful of grip, and you'll find control and comfort remarkably improved. I shoot mine without the compacs sometimes, but only with 38s. With magnums, there's just no point to the pain and [more importantly] the lack of control.).

For my defense load, I make 'em. In my 340, I like a 140 or 146 gr. JHP (the Speer 146 is the perfect bullet for a mild 357 load; looks like a LSWCHP, but with a jacket on the bottom half). I push them with enough 231 to make about a 1000 or 1100 fps--just a really hot +P in a 357 case, really. If was gonna carry it in the woods, it'd be heavier and as fast as I could take it; but for my low-risk lifestyle, five of these (and a slow reload) are likely to do.

Enjoy your airlite--
CG

 

[seeker_two]

1) Should I even consider firing these in my 360PD or is this suicide? (I have this strange urge to try at least one)

What did your own hand ever do to you to make you hate it this much?...

It probably wouldn't KILL you, but it might make your hand wish that it HAD...

 

[foghornl]

Suicidal? No.

Glutton for Punishment? YES! ! !

 

[bpisler]

I fired 50 of those armscor 357's in my 4" M-28 in a semi dark indoor range.The recoil was close if not worse than firing fiocchi 357 in my M-60.
They had the most flash i've ever seen from any 357 loads,the range master watching said the flash looked like a football out the sides and a basketball at the muzzle.After the 1st 6 rounds i think i was in shock,i don't think i would fire these out of anything less than a N frame.BTW the velocity is from a 5" barrel according the armscor website.

 

[Sox]

I wouldn't try more than a box of 50 in one sitting.

 

[MrPink]

Like others have said, Suicidal? No. But full power 357 loads will most likely hurt the hand like somebody sharply rapped your palm with a baseball bat. Not hard enough to break it, but so that 10 minutes later you'd still feel you've been hit with a bat. The gunwriters usually test the scandium J fames with shooting gloves and Pachmayr grips to get as much cushioning between the hand and gun.

That being said, I carry my 340PD and don't like looking like Michael Jackson what with walking around with one glove on all the time. And the Pachmayr's that cover the backstrap make the gun all that much bigger (both in length and height) for pocket carry, which is how I usually carry this gun.

So I use Craig Spegal boot grips that are cut high on the frame for the Centennial. This extra wood "up high" adds thickness which helps spread out the recoil in the web of the hand. Added bonus is the beauty of the cocobolo wood and Craig's impeccable design and finish.

With regards to loads, I would suggest starting with 38 wadcutters and progressively work up to your own personnal tolerance and intended use.

My (hopefully never) intended use is CCW, 10 rounds max (because all I carry is a gun and a speedstrip) close range (any further and I am legally bound to "retreating" - I know not very manly, but best stay alive and avoid criminal and civil trials). I've settled on "medium velocity" or "lite" 357 loads. Federal 130 grain Personal Defense Hydrashoks are the heaviest I'm (slightly un)comfortable with, Remington 125 grain Golden Sabers are a tad lighter and lately I've been liking Proload's Tactical Lite load with a 125 Gold Dot. This load shoots like what I would describe as a 38+P+ if there is such a thing.

I know Mas Ayoob doesn't like the Scandium J frames. Or more specifically, he doesn't like shooting 50 round qualification courses with carry ammo. Well, neither do I but also - as a civilian - neither do I have to. Shooting at the range will usually involves shooting 38s and finishing with a few cylinders of carry ammo. If I want to shoot more carry ammo I take the 640 along.

 

[SW9mm]

i shot five federal 357 mag hollowpoints out of my wifes s&w 340 sc. that was enough for me for that range trip, i went to my 1911 after that. i don't want to ever do it again for fun. the next time a 357 mag bullet comes out of that gun will be during self defense. i'll stick with 38spcl +p for the range. either way it's not an enjoyable gun to shoot. it's a great lightweight carry gun though. there ain't a gun out there like it.

 

[Mal H]

I'm going to step out on a limb and say I don't believe them when they claim 1775 fps. Even though the test gun had a 7.7" barrel, that's pretty excessive for a .357. A real life chrono of the ammo is in order. I don't see how you can stuff enough powder in a .357 case to achieve that velocity, given normal powders and normal guns that won't burst with ++P pressures.

 

[cratz2]

I have a Taurus 85CHULT and have fired Speer Gold Dot +P 38 Specials through it... not all that pleasant, but not horriffic. That Smith weighs about 5 oz less, I believe and going from +P 38s to full house 357s is gonna be a major difference.

I shot one round of moderate handloads (specifically downloaded a bit) through one of the very light Smiths and I was not happy.

Just my opinion though...

 

[krept]

S&W 360PD AirLite + UberHot .357 load = Suicide?

Range report?

 

[P. Plainsman]

Armscor .357s are wild

After trying Armscors recently, I wouldn't shoot them in anything less than a full-sized magnum frame. That is some ornery Filipino ammo.

I was at an unfamiliar gun store and asked them for some middle-of-the-road .357 Mag as range fodder for my GP100. They gave me a box of Armscor 125 gr FMJs.

Um, yeah. I have no idea what those guys were thinking. Shoot these rounds if you want to become an instant star (or freak) at your range. From old guys with 1911s to youngsters with .44 Mags, everyone lowers arms and converges on your lane to find out what is producing all the arclight strikes. I still remember the look one guy's girlfriend gave me as I was walking out.

Each trigger pull yields, not a crack, not a boom, but a deep, wall-rattling *THOOM!* with a brilliant, uniform curtain of orange light.

You burly reloaders out there may dismiss this as the overdramatization of a newbie. However, I looked up the specs on these Armscors once I got home and toweled off. They produce almost *30%* more muzzle energy than my usual Sellier & Bellot 158 gr softpoints, which do not strike me as being eclairs.

In short, a strikingly hardcore factory load. I bet it's what the original, pre-WWII .357 (a police anti-vehicle round) was like. No way would I shoot it from a snub, not even an SP101.

 

[Josey]

I too have shot the Armscor 357 Magnum. I fired it in a older Sauer single action. The bolt broke! I fired a cylinder before it broke. I fired one round and cocked the hammer back noting 0 resistance. I stopped, decocked and carefully removed the rounds. I took the revolver down for inspection. The bolt was broken in two and the trigger spring was broken in small pieces. If Armscor proofs their revolvers with this 357 MAGNUM! load, I want one. I haven't got a 357 Magnum Vaquero or Blackhawk.

 

[Southern Raider]

At the very least, follow the instructions in the manual to fire four, then inspect the fifth round. If these are as hot as some people claim, I bet you'll find the last remaining round literally coming apart under recoil. (The bullets pull out under recoil.)

I had one and reluctantly sold it. My only gripe about these pistols is that the really hot ammo comes apart and this tends to limit you to softer loads.

 

[SAWBONES]

Those velocity figures appear pretty inflated.

I've shot all available loadings from the major cartridge manufacturers of .357 Magnum +P 125gr JHP in my S&W340PD in an attempt to find which provided acceptable accuracy plus precision.

I'm a long-time shooter, and not recoil-sensitive, and while I have succeeded in getting small accurate groups in .357 Magnum 125gr+P with other J-frames, including a friend's 340PD, I couldn't do so with my particular example, at least not to my satisfaction, and I've found a few .38 Special 158gr+P loads that do much better, so that's what I carry in the little gun now, but my point is that firing lots of .357 full power loads in the lightweight S&W alloy revolvers isn't much fun.
It's certainly not dangerous or suicidal, but it's just not enjoyable!
But since you probably won't do a lot of it, accordingly, I doubt your gun will break, and personally I never experienced any bullet-pulling or signs of overpressure.

 

[Josey]

I wonder? There was some old Chinese lifting powder. Fireworks powder as I recall, NOT gun powder. This was packaged and sold as Dragon powder by some suppliers. The powder I inspected had hair, fingernail clippings and probably Hanta virus! I wonder if Armscor mght be using the same or similar powder? It definitely sounded like a cannon going off.

 

[paul105]

Pachmayr Gripper Decellerators -- covered backstrap, finger groves and decellator rubber make these small, lightweight J frames much more comfortable to shoot. They also make the gun heavier, deeper, longer, bulkier, and "stickyer" -- to me the trade off is worth it. They also allow me to get a much more "consistent" grip and "feel" much better than any other grip I've tried.

The Crimson Trace laser grip also does a credible job of reducing felt recoil. The are quite a bit more compact than the Pachmayr's. They also cost about $225 more.

As much as I like the Pachmayr Gripper Decels my 340 Scandy wares the Crimson Trace laser grips (this is the one that is with me 24/7). All my other "J" frames ware the Pachy's.

 

[Hal]

Mal,
Have a look at this thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=45283

1700 is doable w/out too much sweat given enough barrel.

I agree though, 7 1/2 doesn't sound kosher. Maybe a 10 or 14. (Contender?)