S&W Internal Lock Revolvers

[Hawk]

Those wind up guns are worthless, and I don't see them being collectible in my lifetime. YMMV.

I and mine wish you a long, healthy and prosperous life.

But you may have already lived long enough to see IL revolvers being collectible. Due to a notable breadth of line, S&W collectors with resources less than Buffet or Gates, have taken to "segment" collecting.

They may be collecting all alloy revolvers or Lew Horton specials or Performance Center offerings. These folks are unlikely to be much troubled by the lock.

Such segments as "post war, pre number" or "pre war" or "break tops" are already priced in the stratosphere so the later models are more accessible. 'Course this whole "segment collecting" surmise of mine is based on what I've read and I've been known to be wrong before - does seem plausible though, does it not?

The numbers for S&W revolvers, while not showing the growth of the semi-autos, are not too shabby. Based on ATF numbers for 2003 through 2006 we get:
03: 120,000
04: 146,000
05: 158,000
06: 185,000

That's a smidgin over 600,000 revolvers with ILs in four years. Clearly they're not suffering overmuch from the dozen or so that are boycotting them.

I prefer the looks of the non-IL product myself but it's always nice to see 600,000 new revolvers sold in 4 years - it constitutes 600,000 thorns in the side of the banners who are watching their task grow larger and more difficult every year.

And, that's one thing that buying used can never do: annoy Brady and irritate VPC. Shuffling existing product from one set of hands to another for ever increasing sums keeps the pool static. New guns, even new revolvers with locks, makes getting rid of them an ever more daunting task.

While I can respect the views of anyone holding that S&W "caved" it doesn't diminish the fact that VPC wants civilian handguns gone - period. They care not one whit that there's a lock in the side - they begrudge every single one of the 600,000. That alone provides those revolvers with a certain charm as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hawk]

S&W is trying the waters "again" with new non locked guns in the 642 and 442 models.

if the lock was a non issue then im sure they wouldnt be doing this.

It's been stated that those were to burn up existing frame stock and I find the supposition plausible.

But I did buy a "no-lock" model 40 to encourage them. Might help, can't hurt.

 

[johnnylaw53]

Well i really shouldn't read these lock no lock threads but i can't help myself last time I thought about the lock was when S&W put those no lock 642 out. I found one but was not willing to give almost $250.00 and my lock 642 up to get one. I'm afraid that soon we will be talking about how we wish all we had was locks on our weapons instead of those finger print sensors that only allow the person with his or her finger prints programed in to fire the weapon. with the election going the way it seem those days are very close.

be safe

 

[dbriannelson]

Today I put my money down on a NoLock 442-1. The dealer said it was $20 less for them to buy than the 442-2 and they passed that savings and more on to me, as I buy pretty much everything at that one place.

The other thing I thought was pretty interesting was that the distributor they use said there were only 89 NoLock 442s still unsold. I don't know the total number being made this pass, but small numbers like that indicate to me that it's more likely they're using up old stock frames, rather than turning a corner design-wise.

Anyway ... I got mine!

-Don

 

[FoMoGo]

I cant see the lock while I am shooting it.
I have put some massive, higher than suggested pressure, loads thru my M21... no lock issues.
Not that I have not considered removing it as a "just in case" step.
My M21 is more accurate than my 629-1, has a better action... both DA and SA... and on overall function,the M21 is on par with the M27-2 P&R I sold off due to non use. And the M27 6 1/2" P&R is noted to be among the best of the "old school" S&Ws.
I dont mind the fact that some people are staying away from the IL guns... I am a shooter and not a collector.


Jim

 

[gizamo]

IL is one thing, but MIM is worse.

I chuckle when reading threads about "Sweeeet" triggers and actions. They are not sweet, they are loose as a goose. The MIM guns are built on throwaway/disposable frames....The stack tolerance would have made an old hand fitter ....

Why is it that the performance center still uses forged part?

Giz

 

[FoMoGo]

I compared 3 N frames side by side.
27-2, 629-1, and 21-4.
629 was nice, but didnt compare to the 27.
Fired back to back at the range the 21 and 27 were nearly indistinguishable.
Not just my opinion... but the same was noticed by a few people I let shoot my Smiths.
Maybe I just got a good new one.


Jim

 

[gizamo]

FoMoGo,,

You very well may have gotten a really good one

I'm old as dirt and opinionated as hell. So I range rod my guns, and check the cylinder tolerances with feeler gauges. I tune them all and have taken the time to learn how to do it properly. Spent many hours with some very fine gunsmiths that showed me the proper techniques...I have the jigs to perform many of the fitment procedures. Yep, I'm AR (anal retentive for the less PC crowd)

I tried a few of the modern S&W's after the changeover to MIM. Now MIM of itself is a good thing. I have very few problems with it, so peace to all my brethren that feel it is the Cat's Meow....

But the date of change that heralded the MIM parts coincides closely with the change from hand fit tolerances to CNC drop in parts...and that I cannot tolerate. .....

giz

 

[FoMoGo]

Giz... c'mon now... you lay nice guns on rocks for fun.


Jim

 

[gizamo]

Hell Jim,

No rocks were ever hurt during those picture takin' sessions

Giz

 

[CU74]

Given how far we have come down the "nanny state" road, I think the Lawyer Locks are here to stay. If I'm wrong and they eventually go away, I do not think the Lock S&Ws will ever be as collectible as as the Pre-MIM, pinned and recessed old Smiths. IMHO, the workmanship on the newer guns is not as good as on the old ones.

I'm a solid #2 lock hater with a few older Smiths - enough that I am not actively looking to buy more. Not all are pinned and recessed, but none have MIM parts. While I didn't buy them as such, I suppose one or two may be collectible to a very small group, (e.g., 45+ year-old no-dash Model 27).

I'm not at all bothered that lots of folks are buying the newer MIM, Lock guns - I'm just glad to see people exercising their Second Amendment rights. We need a strong firearms industry in this country and citizens buying new guns is what it will take to keep it strong.

 

[gizamo]

Can I have an Amen......

giz

 

[joneb]

Why is it that the performance center still uses forged part?

It's like a rotten egg, you don't know whats inside until you crack it open.

How many tiny little parts make up the internal lock ? That number is the amount of more things that can cause the revolver to fail, one thing that attracts me to revolvers is their reliability, just add the lock and some MIM parts and that appeal is gone. I might as well buy a semi-auto.

 

[mauiglide]

I don't doubt people have problems with the ILS but I don't. I'm one of many that bought and enjoys these S&W revolvers with the ILS (686 Plus 2.5" and 4"). The locks don't bother me a bit and I've not experienced any problems with them locking up unexpectedly even after 1K rounds of .357 magnum and +P .38 spl ammo. I've never heard of a recall on these handguns and S&W still sells a lot of them. These revolvers have a lifetime warranty and there is a factory authorized S&W gunsmith right here in the islands so if I ever needed service I don't have to send it off to the mainland.

 

[joneb]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/228102718

 

[MIgunguy]

Include me in group #2. I REALLY HATE THE LOCK!!

 

[BADUNAME37]

I could take it or leave it. I don't care that it's there and, as long as it doesn't somehow malfunction and not permit me to shoot when I need to to save my life, then I don't care about it.

It's kind of like a luxury item on a car that I would never use, so I just ignore it.

HOWEVER, I should carry my little black lock keys with me EVERYWHERE I go (just in case)!~

I wonder if S&W could be sued if someone went to save themselves with a shot and the lock malfunctioned, not allowing them to shoot. It would seem to me that would be more of a potential problem than someone stupidly leaving a loaded revolver around for children to play with.

 

[CDH]

Being old enough and having picked up a few Smith revolvers through the years, all bought brand new (19,66,66,686,60,60,29,63,642,642), every one in that list are pre-locks except one.

That first of two 642's you see listed was my first I/L Smith, and it bothered me as I stood there and filled out the paperwork. And it kept bothering me, more for the "Clinton sell out" idea then for the lock itself.
Then the real problems started showing up with the lock, and that was it.

I came across the current offering of no-lock 642's and bought another. The I/L 642 is looking for a new home, likely to some acquaintence who mentions casually that he'd like to buy a nice carry piece. I'll have one for him.

There will never, ever, be any I/L Smiths in my house again, and no one will ever have to pry a Smith I/L revolver from my cold, dead hands, because I won't be holding one.

At my age, I'm pretty close to being done collecting, but the one additional Smith I'd like would be a 617 w/4" barrel. But I may never end up with one because they don't sell them anymore, if you know what I mean.
I kick myself for not buying one when they were available new, but that's life.

 

[XR400R]

Someone said:

"Sure people are buying the lock revolvers, the people who don't know any better!

I guess I must admit to being in that ill-informed group. I've had no lock-related issues (or any other problems) whatsoever with my M&P 340. Works great, lock or no. I couldn't care less that it is there since I see no effect of it. I paid enough for it that I certianly wouldn't want to pay a penny more for the same weapon without a lock (even if they were available, which they aren't). And possible resale value means nothing, since I plan to take this excellent jewel into the casket with me.

Can someone please advise me why members seem to hate this pointless device so much? For me, it's kind of like the total-waste-of-matter loop lock that came with the pistol. I just ignore it, and that seems to make no difference. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Deanimator]

HOWEVER, I should carry my little black lock keys with me EVERYWHERE I go (just in case)!

If you're going to carry a gun with the IL, that's a VERY wise thing to do.

I just shake my head when I see people say, "I just stashed the key away and don't worry about it!" If you happen to be one of the "lucky" ones who has a malfunction, and it's when somebody is trying to kill or maim you, you'll be doing a LOT of worrying if that key's farther away than your pocket.

 

[Deanimator]

Can someone please advise me why members seem to hate this pointless device so much? For me, it's kind of like the total-waste-of-matter loop lock that came with the pistol. I just ignore it, and that seems to make no difference. Thanks for the advice.

1. It's got a documented history of malfunctions which you can find on the S&W forum.

2. It's unnecessary. They could just supply every gun with a modestly priced padlock with a plastic sheathed shank to lock over the top strap. With THAT in place, you couldn't even properly load the gun.

3. It's ugly as sin. They weren't content to force the lock on you, they had to rub your nose in that by putting it in an excruciatingly obvious place.

If the lock WORKED and if it didn't ruin the esthetics of the guns, it'd be WAY less of an issue than it is.

I've got a gun safe full of pre-lock S&W revolvers. ALL of them except my K-22 have at least a secondary self-defense role. That being the case, why would I want to spend a LOT of money on a gun with something that doesn't work right, isn't of any use to me, and looks like crap?

Rumor on S&W Forums is that S&W is seriously considering making the lock optional, as it is on their M&P semi-autos. No fanatical lock supporter has EVER been able to rationally explain why if the revolvers HAVE to have the ILS, the semi-autos DON'T.

 

[Old Fuff]

See post #33

But the date of change that heralded the MIM parts coincides closely with the change from hand fit tolerances to CNC drop in parts...and that I cannot tolerate. .....

I'm with Giz. I could learn to live with the lock because I can quickly neuter it. But about the same time the lock came along other changes were made that aren't so simply reversed. I admit that the changes were necessary to keep prices in a reasonable range, but to say that changes made to reduce production costs resulted it better made guns is a stretch. What they did do is make them less expensive to produce. I strongly encourage others to buy Smith & Wesson’s current products because I want to keep the company around. Nothing would make me sadder then to see S&W become another Colt, with a two-gun product line.

But at the same time don’t expect me to follow my own advice. Like Giz, I’ve been inside enough revolvers to know the difference.

 

[Greg8098]

Never been a S&W fan, although I do miss my 4" .500 magnum. I was considering buying a 686 until I compared the lock and pre-lock version. IMO, the lock takes away from the looks of the gun. I seriously doubt that I will buy a Smith now. If they drop the lock, or at least redesign the frame where it is no longer noticeable, then yes I will surely buy one. Anyone here ever try to petition those people ???

 

[john44402]

I'm with the FoMoGo who said, "I'm a shooter and not a collector"

If I was forced to carry an IL Smith revolver or I HAD keep one for home defense, well...yeah I'd be screaming about it.

My carry/home defense piece is a Springfield XD45, a "throw away gun" if you will. Last thing I'm interested in doing, is shooting someone with a classic Smith revolver, or a $2000 "tactical-super-carry-terrorist mission aborter-professional-custom-global response-beach stormer-recon-elephant raper-spec ops-precision" 1911, only to have those investigating the shooting keep it for...who the hell knows how long.

They can keep that XD, run as many tests as their dear little hearts desire. I'll get another one

However, I'm thrilled with performanced of the IL guns. They're fun as hell to shoot, and that's what they're all about for me.

 

[krs]

I don't like that the lock is there, or rather that the hole is there since the lock itself doesn't stay long in a pistol of mine.

But Smith & wesson ARE coming up with some intersting models, and I like those.

I bought a Lew Horton N frame 3" model 27-8 recently. It's a very satisfyingly large revolver, beautifully blued and styled like the original Registered Magnum, but it chambers eight rounds just as neatly as the original chambered six, has a typical old time gorgeous trigger, and is as accurate, best I can shoot, as either of my old Model 14 or pre-14 K38.

A great experience to have this fine piece!

But...it has a hole over the bolt release thumpiece. Darn.