S&W internal locks ?

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Hummmm don't use a S&W with an internal lock as a SD defense gun, problem solved. Look at it it this way if the lock fails and you get harmed/killed you or you family can sue S&W. Sue everyone.
DssG19,
I guess you didn't understand or chose to ignore what I said. Whether or not you choose to use the lock if a tiny little spring in the lock mechanism breaks the revolver becomes useless. The default state shouldn't be locked but it is. That is dangerous.
 
I have several S&W's with and without the lock. I prefer models w/o the lock, but also want to take advantage of some of the very interesting new designs coming out of S&W (e.g. 327 NG).

I have never heard of the lock activating itself and would be interested in any documented cases of this happening.

Also, I believe that a more interesting legal issue is the potential liability if the civil court decides you should have engaged the lock and didn't. By installing this function S&W may have passed the liability of acidental/unauthorized discharge from them to the user.

As far as disabling the lock goes, it would likely be used against you in civil or criminal cases much the same was as ammo and caliber selection are. The DA would use the fact that you knowingly disabled a factory install safety device to paint you as some kind of nut.

The lock is here to stay and we should just be happy that there is still an American company making revolvers.
 
I've got an lock in my scandium 340M&P .357. Great gun! Got a thousand rounds through it with not a sign of wear. Many of those rounds were .357 mag. stuff and pretty hot stuff at that.

I wish the lock weren't there. But no one makes anything quite like this gun for back up use. S&W has and will have locks in their new guns. If I balked at the lock (other than simply wishing it weren't there) I'd be passing up the best (IMO) back up .357 revolver there is.

I'm an average guy and not a LEO. The chances are slim to none that I will get into a gunfight in the next 2 lifetimes. After putting thousands of rounds through my gun without a failure - the odds of it happening in that one 5 second period in 3 lifetimes is about like being hit by lightning while scuba diving. Especially so considering that this is my BUG and probably wont ever be used even if I do get into a gunfight.

Do the math and enjoy your guns.

Having said that about my little back up gun - I will say again that it p....s me off to have it there. I wish it weren't there.

I am currently customizing a main carry revolver and you can bet it will not have a lock. After shopping hard and planning for performance and custom work for my main carry gun for some time - why would I settle for a gun with a hole in the side - especially one that p....d me off everytime I fondle it?

My BUG is a lightweight tool to hide away in my pocket when I'm not practicing occasional drills with it.

I'm in my mid 60's now. My new carry gun will be a great love of my life. I'll choose all aspects of it accordingly. I damn sure won't let some pinko drill a hole in the side.
 
Can anybody confirm that the lock forces the thumbpiece to be installed lower in the frame?

I only have one revolver, a 29 with a lock. Speedloaders are useless on it, and I think that it is because the thumbpiece is too low.
 
I have never heard of the lock activating itself and would be interested in any documented cases of this happening.

If you acquaint yourself with the search function, your eyes will be opened.

As far as disabling the lock goes, it would likely be used against you in civil or criminal cases much the same was as ammo and caliber selection are. The DA would use the fact that you knowingly disabled a factory install safety device to paint you as some kind of nut.

This is a ludicrous blanket statement. Here in Texas, if you are found to have been involved in a legitimate self-defense shooting, you are immune from civil suit. End of story.

I'm an average guy and not a LEO. The chances are slim to none that I will get into a gunfight in the next 2 lifetimes. After putting thousands of rounds through my gun without a failure - the odds of it happening in that one 5 second period in 3 lifetimes is about like being hit by lightning while scuba diving. Especially so considering that this is my BUG and probably wont ever be used even if I do get into a gunfight.

The odds being what they are, why do you carry at all?
To take it a step further, if your scuba tank regulator was equipped with a closing valve that just might, under certain circumstances, close itself without warning, thereby depriving you of air, and it were installed on only one brand of regulator, would you buy it?

Just wondering.
 
orionengnr:

I have used the search function and mostly I find BS about a friend of a friend. When I say documented I mean by an independent authority. Here is what American Handgunner has to say.

"S&W's contact person for folks like me is Paul Pluff. He is a gun-guy who has been at S&W for over 20 years. He's not a trained PR flack who can spin daylight into dark. When I met him he was in charge of Customer Service and has worked his way up in the company. When I first asked about the lock thing he hadn't heard about it, but promised to check for me. He found the gunsmiths who actually had seen the guns and reported back: "Only a couple of guns have come back and we have been unable to duplicate the condition." But on the premise it's better to do something than nothing, the most likely culprit would be the spring, so it was replaced."

The same article:

" The curse of the Internet is that untold thousands (maybe only dozens?) of people see a comment and many assume it's true. The other curse of many gun owners is if something happened once, they assume it's an everyday occurrence. So the sky falls and panic rules the gun universe. One Internet genius even went so far as to offer instructions on how to remove the lock. Not only would that be a great reason for S&W to void your warranty, but picture yourself on the witness stand:

"The gun your neighbor boy used to shoot that little neighbor girl had a lock didn't it?"

"Yes"

"But you removed it?"

"Ah, um ... (gulp) yes."

"Too bad."

I was able to find this incident reported by Massad Ayoob:

"In Rochester, Indiana, detective Dennis Reichard was firing his personally owned service revolver, a Model 329 Scandium with full power .44Magnum, when the lock's flag mechanism flew out of its slot in the frame alongside the exposed hammer. While the .44 continued to fire, Reichard was less than thrilled with his duty weapon literally falling apart while he was shooting it, and has gone back to his old all-steel Model 629 without the integral lock mechanism."

Anyway, it doesn't seem to be an epedemic like most on the internet would have you believe.


Like I said, if you would bother reading my post, "As far as disabling the lock goes, it would likely be used against you in civil or criminal cases". Clearly disabling the lock will be used against you, if you don't believe that you are living in a fantasy world. Even in Texas where you are protected from civil liability if the shooting is found justifiable; first you have to get over the justifiable shooting hurdle. If the DA decides to go after you he will use anything he can to portray you as a fanatical gun nut looking to kill someone; I am sure he would be licking his chops over the fact that you disabled a factory installed safety device.

Finally, we are just expressing our opinions in as civil a manner as possible. I don't really see a need for your sarcastic tone.
 
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re:internal locks

i own a 642-1 38.speial+p no lock they made the 642&442 with out the lock. check out the 2009s&w catalog on their site.also i my self dont like the locks but i dont beleive that the lock jams the gun its just hear say thats just my 2 cents.
 
Old Fuff said:
To save a lot of time, look at the green bar at the top of the page, and click on SEARCH. Enter the key words, "internal lock," under the heading "Threads," and you will soon know far more then you ever wanted to.
^--- should be stickied, IMHO.

I'm usually circumspect in suggesting the search function but this lock donnybrook is now quite over the edge. I believe it's actually managed to exceed the "870 vs Mossberg" threads in the shotgun forum. Nearly 100 "lock" threads using thread titles only and excluding "triple".

I've stayed clear of a couple lock threads simply due to running out of new things to say. Doesn't mean there aren't new things to say - just means I couldn't think of them. However, the new Admin/Owner at S&W forum came up with something I thought was interesting in the context of the revised forum catagories.

The snippet addresses only collectibility but I still thought it was fascinating. Probably accurate as well - ATF figures have shown a steady increase in S&W revolver sales since the lock which would tend to indicate that the general public doesn't give a wet slap about the lock and, eventually, collectors won't either - though I may not live to see it.

Lee Jarrett said:
I can assure you that not many decades will pass before a man seeking a nice collector grade 44 Triple Lock will also be seeking a mint example of a Thunder Ranch 44 with the lock for his collection, complete with the keys unmarred in the original baggie! Of course, he will be seeking all variants of the 44 in between. You must remember, I have watched S&W collecting evolve through many stages in the 5 decades I have been active in it. When I was young, and chasing 5-Screws around gun shows in the 70’s, many older collectors would not even consider Post-War Hand Ejectors as a legitimate collecting field. Most collectors focused on the Antique S&W’s. Just as the Post-War 5-Screws have advanced into a serious collector field, today’s very different designs shall advance into having their own collector following as evolution makes them the guns of yesterday, the guns of a bygone era.
 

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Never thought about it from a collectors point of view.

By the way, I did the search and read for about 2 hours, I quickly tired of reading the same thing over and over, most of it with very little substance.

Thanks for the insight.
 
How much advertising did S&W buy in that issue of American Handgunner?
 
The lock is a storage device, not a safety like the grip safety on a 1911.
It is like the attorney trying to crucify you because you didnt have to take the external trigger lock off of the pistol before gunning down the house invader.
People need to look at the functional aspect of the lock for what it is... a storage device.
I have no issues buying new S&Ws.
I have no issue removing the locks.
I keep the parts and put them back in before I sell them.
The lock failures for the most part have been with lightweight hard recoiling pistols.
I cant stand J frames, I like big bore pistols... and those are very user unfriendly with full house loads.
I buy steel guns and remove the locks... and sleep well.


Jim
 
The thing I despise is that on the vast majority of S&W revos, the lock is mandatory.

On their M&P line of autopistols, it is entirely optional.

Optional should be the default.
 
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The odds being what they are, why do you carry at all?
To take it a step further, if your scuba tank regulator was equipped with a closing valve that just might, under certain circumstances, close itself without warning, thereby depriving you of air, and it were installed on only one brand of regulator, would you buy it?

Just wondering.
(End-Quote)

Because it's my right to do so! I'm betting the odds are the same or less than mine for the vast majority of licensed concealed gun carriers as well. (And I'm doing security regularly for a large Mega-church.)

Notice that I said, ..........."After putting thousands of rounds through my gun without a failure - the odds of it happening in that one 5 second period in 3 lifetimes is about like being hit by lightning while scuba diving. Especially so considering that this is my BUG and probably wont ever be used even if I do get into a gunfight."

If thousands of buyers fire many hundreds of rounds in practice around the world - with only a few (mostly undocumented) cases of failure - the odds are slim to none that it will ever happen to you or me. Add to that the percentage of shooting time that we will do in the circustance of emergency compared to our other shooting time - and add to that the gun in question being our backup gun - and the odds of that slim to none chance of failure happening at that one short instance of time becomes VERY VERY slim to say the least.


And yes, if the only equivilent scuba tank without such a device was made by Rossi or Iver Johnson - I'd choose the Smith and Wesson scuba tank - without a doubt.
 
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i really need to skip any comments about the lock it is very bad for me but it's almost like a drug to me i can't help my self. When I went back to a snub for off duty i picked up a 642 and didn't really know about the lock until I got it home and then I remember reading about it. I then found the 642 club here and began reading and relize I had a weapon that sole purpose was to get me kill one day if I ever had to use it. I wasn't even thinking of the rounds I had already put down range with no problems. When ever i read something about the lock I would go buy some ammo go to the range and shoot it waiting for it to lock up so I could report back that it happen to me. Well I'm somewhere at 4k and it hasn't happen yet of course I hasn't had to use it to to defend myself. It just amaze me how those evil people at S&W are able to design a weapon that is able to tell when you shooting it to defend your life and not shooting holes in paper. Of course some have said that the finish come off after a lot of pockect carry. Mine is carry every day some kind of way and no finish have came off yet, I guess it's waiting till the time I want to show it to someone to impress them at that time the finish will come off. too bad those gun makeres at S&W don't use thier talent to do good instead of evil.

be safe
 
just got off the phone from s&w customer service and i asked them why the didnt expand their line of no lock revolvers like they told me and they said that they read all the forums out there and that they are going to have some come out soon.im waiting to order a 686 4" 6 shot if not i will be getting a ruger gp 100.
 
Hey Saxon Pig, I agree with you that disabling a safety device on a firearm would be a potential problem in a civil law suit.

I don't mean to preach, but, Everything under the sun is a "potential problem" in a civil law suit. Don't ever think you'll avoid "potential problems" by following some imagined guidelines that seem logical. If someone convinces a judge or jury that they've been wrongly "damaged", the US torts system assumes they deserve to be "made whole" i.e.: give them $money. The source of the money follows only one rule: who's in any way involved in the incident that's got something to take. Degree of fault does not figure into the equation. That's called "Joint and Several Liability". US citizens would do well to remember this while imagining what creates "potential problems" in a civil suit.

Les
 
jchampagne - Did they give you any indication of how much longer it will take them, to have more no lock revolvers?

Any mention of what models?

Despite the rantings of the fanboys that, "the lock is here to stay", I counted on Safety Wesson wanting to sell as many handguns as possible.

Hope it is soon. I'd like a 3" 686+. Thanks for the good news! TJ
 
Why are you guys still calling the ILS a "safety device" when it's really a "storage device?" The ILS was never meant to be a safety like on semi-autos, it's there to lock the gun while being STORED, not carried. IT IS NOT A SAFETY DEVICE!!!
 
It is a safety device. It is made to make the gun safe while stored and to prevent accidental discharge.

I agree that it doesn't make the gun any safer when it is being used, but what we need to be aware of is that disabling this device goes to state of mind. The DA will use it to show that you had a disregard for the safety of others and make you seem like someone you are not.

I guess I have to admit that there have been failures of the device in the past, but they are not even close to as prevalent as we would be led to believe by reading these forums.

I haven't seen any statistics but my guess would be that the don't fail any more often than other mechanical aspects of a revolver, and that means almost never.
 
The DA will use it to show that you had a disregard for the safety of others and make you seem like someone you are not.

That is such a cosmically distant point of concern that I nearly laughed out loud when I read it.

Any gun owner with two firing brain cells should be able to tell a convincing and heartfelt story behind why an ILS system was removed.

If you are so worried about what the deletion or alteration of a Hillary Hole will prompt a anti-gun DA to say, just think about what could be said of your not even using it as intended:

"So Mr. Defendant, did I hear you correctly when you said you heard your dog bark repeatedly, you awoke, grabbed your revolver and shot the deceased in your front entryway?"

"Yes. That is what I said."

"Your revolver comes with a factory installed locking system. Was it engaged?

"No. I like for my 'nightstand gun' to be ready to use."

"You don't have the revolver in a safe at night?"

"No. Again, I feel better with it ready to go."

"Thank you. No further questions."

LATER IN CLOSING.

"You heard Mr. Defendant in his own words. He has a locking revolver he never locks, and he doesn't use a safe. At night, he is always "ready to go." Ask yourselves, isn't his cavalier attitude towards safe storage and his desire to always be "ready" to shoot, ample evidence that he was never going to give the deceased, whom we have shown to be merely a man with a mental health history who was off his medications, the benefit of the doubt? Mr. Defendant had predetermined to shoot the "bad guys" regardless of circumstance, so much so that his NEED to be ready to shoot was the paramount concern to him in regards to his guns. He played God and condemned Mr. Smith to death as a falsely perceived threat. I ask that you find Mr. Defendant guilty of intentional manslaughter."

*****

I'll take a revolver without an internal lock thanks.
 
Tell that to people that are convicted of unlawful use of deadly force every year based on stupid juries that believe that because the guy was shooting a magnum caliber he must be a blood crazed killer.

Check your own brain cells Boats and read what the authority, Ayoob, has to say about what happens after the use of deadly force. He recommends that we don't use reloaded ammo for defense, even if it exactly matches factory loads in the same caliber, he recommends that we use calibers that are appropriate to the purpose, he recommends we select or defensive ammo based on what is used by the local law enforcement, not because it is the best possible load for self defense, but because it helps eliminate your state of mind when you chose something different.

I would like to see the look on your face when you are getting screwed by some political DA and a bunch of people that are to stupid to get off jury duty. I am sure it wouldn't be as smug as you are on the Internet.
 
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Ayoob has yet, in print anyway, to give the names and/or case numbers for any of his anecdotal horror stories. Until he does, he is just trafficking in old wives' tales.

Legal citation is uniform throughout the nation. Through the use of court cites, e.g. Geary v. Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary Parish Sch., 7 F.3d 324 (3d Cir. 1993) or State v. Johnson, 123 Or. App. 456, 789 P.2d 012 (1986), Ayoob's cases could be found and their holdings thoroughly examined for veracity.

No standard legal citations=no evidence of out of control prosecutors gunning for righteous shooters. It is that simple.
 
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