S&W M&P Model 1905 4th Change

[FPrice]

Was browsing through one of the local dealers tonight when one of the clerks mentioned that he had taken in two older revolvers earlier in the day. One was a very nice Colt Police Positive. But the other...

Was a fairly nice older S&W. At first I thought it was a WWII version because of the serial number (887,xxx), but no "V". So, according to Supica and Nahas it looks like a Model 1905, 4th Change. Assuming a straight line of production, it looks like late 1930's, maybe 1938. Finish was a little worn but fairly nice for the age. Cylinder lockup was pretty tight on all but one or two chambers, but those were not bad. Grips looked original. No military markings but on the backstrap was engraved "AOP 305".

I offered him $300 but he wanted to wait until the owner saw it and made his decision. I tried to find out how much they paid for it but they wouldn't say. I left my number, hopefully we can work out a fair price tomorrow.

 

[Jim K]

Prior to the new safety block (and the "S" marking) the Victory Model was simply the 1905 Hand Ejector, 4th change. The only differences were cosmetic. The true "Victory Model" came about when the numbers rolled over and S&W's numbering machine only went to six digits. So some bright boy suggested using the "V for Victory" prefix and the "Victory Model" was born on April 24, 1942.

Any S&W M&P with a serial number over 800,000 (no "V") is wartime production. Not all went to the armed forces, the British, or Lend Lease. S&W continued production of the basic civilian gun for quite a while, although they were available only to authorized buyers, such as police, plant guards, etc. The "AOP" may be a police department or stand for a factory guard force, something like "American Optical Police".

Jim

 

[Josey]

What style of ejector? Mushroom head with step cuts for clearance in the barrel are worth more. Does it have the safety block? I have seen several Canadian police imports lately. AOP could be Auxiliary Ontario Police. 305 would be the constable it was issued to. $300.00 seems high. I do understand why.

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Jim, and would place an 800,000 number at 1940 or even 41. At this time S&W was filling contracts from the U.K. and commercial orders were generally restricted. However the Defence Supplies Corporation (DSC) was given the task of obtaining revolvers for police departments, defense plants, etc. that would not normally be supplied by the military - who had their own problems. I suspect the gun you're looking at is one of those, and if you obtain it I would strongly suggest you write Roy Jinks and get a factory letter. This one may be a sleeper.

 

[Lone Star]

If the cylinder timing is marginal, better be sure that you can fix it. If modern Model 10 parts won't work, parts dealers may have Victory Model "hands" that would be contemporary with the gun. Use this to bargain on price...

I doubt the Ontario police story. Probably would be Ontario Auxilliary Police, anyway. Do they even have a province-wide auxilliary police? I'm sure that other Canadian cops used the M&P before the RCMP adopted it in 1954, but don't see a Canadian connection on the basis of the furnished info. Does it have Canadian proof or Broad Arrow "C" marks? I guess that civilian cop guns wouldn't.

Lone Star

 

[FPrice]

Jim Keenan,

"Any S&W M&P with a serial number over 800,000 (no "V") is wartime production. Not all went to the armed forces,"

Thanks for the info. I'm glad to see that it is wartime production, even if not marked as a military piece.

Josey,

"What style of ejector? Mushroom head with step cuts for clearance in the barrel are worth more. Does it have the safety block?"

The ejector is as you describe, but I do not know how to check for the safety block. Actually the costs at this store are a bit more reasonable than in some others. This guy had a S&W M1917 DA .45ACP revolver marked for $450 but gave it to me for $325.

Old Fuff,

"if you obtain it I would strongly suggest you write Roy Jinks and get a factory letter. This one may be a sleeper."

I definitely will send this info off, most likely WHEN I get it, not IF. Unless the owner just gets too greedy.


Lone Star,

"I doubt the Ontario police story." I am sure. If it was Canadian, it would most likely have other markings. Hopefully a history letter from Roy Jinks would address this question.

"If the cylinder timing is marginal, better be sure that you can fix it."

The cylinder timing seems to be very good. Even the two loose cylinders seemed well within tolerances.

The biggest "damage" is that the bottom of the stocks appear to be a trifle beveled, as if there was some minor damage and someone tried to sand them down or level them off. Not much, but just enough to be noticeable, especially to a collector.

I'll let you guys know how this turns out.

 

[Old Fuff]

FPrice:

Don’t worry about the large head on the extractor rod or hammer block. All S&W Hand Ejector revolvers made at this time had this style of rod except for those made with 2-inch barrels. A hammer block of sorts was installed in the sideplate and actuated by a cam on the back of the hand, but the “modern†hammer block of the type used today didn’t come along until 1945 and the “VS†serial number series.

If you can, remove the grips and see if one side isn’t numbered to the gun. They should be. If they are they should be smooth walnut, which would help date when the gun was made. On the other hand they might be checkered commercial grips, and these could be correct also as both styles were being used. Because the grips were individually fitted to each frame (even during wartime) any misfit should be taken as a clue they're replacements.

I would also expect there would be a lanyard loop, or a hole in the butt for one, as this was the case with K-frame revolvers being made during the early 40's. That said, it could have been made with an earlier commercial frame – which is another reason I think it could be a “sleeper.â€

In doing some additional research I discovered that a similar revolver, serial no. 889,xxx was shipped in January 1942 – and this might give you a hint about your (potential) revolver. But be aware that frames were serial numbered before they were assembled into finished arms, and they were not always drawn from inventory in sequential order. So sometimes you find that a gun was shipped out of the range you’d expect to find. Again, a factory letter would clear all of this up.

The "AOP 305" marking could relate to a law enforcement agency, but it’s equally possible it was so marked by a large defense contractor. The DSC was supplying arms to both. In fact during the 1940 – 41 time frame they obtained a substantial part of S&W, Colt’s and Harrington & Richardson’s production that wasn’t allocated to military or foreign orders.

 

[mec]

probably looks a lot like this. 1938

 

[FPrice]

mec...

THAT'S IT!

But not quite so nice a finish. And the one I am looking at has a lanyard loop on the butt. Is that one yours?

NOW FOR THE BIG NEWS:

The saleman just called. The owner priced it at $250. $50 LESS than I offered last night.

Film at eleven.

 

[mec]

Yep mine. It's a fine shooter and seems to have seen little use. The lanyard ring sure makes it sound like somebody's police or military revolver.

 

[Old Fuff]

In 1938 a lanyard loop was optional, and only provided on special order. After late 1940 most if not all new frames were being drilled for the loop. Of course that didn't mean that some commercial orders weren't filled using older frames, but by late 1941 most of those were gone, and by early 1942 - after Pearl Harbor - all frames were drilled for the lanyard loop.

However any experienced collector knows that sometimes exceptions to the rules crop up. I would expect that the revolver FPrice is about to obtain should have smooth walnut grips, but apparently not.

 

[Troy]

S&W #10

Really nice gun photo. I have recently bought the same gun BUT with 50% finish 150.00 $$ havent shot yet was very much wanting year manufactured serial#295### Thanks!!!

 

[Troy]

S&W #10

Really nice gun photo. I have recently bought the same gun BUT with 50% finish 150.00 $$ havent shot yet was very much wanting year manufactured serial#295### Thanks!!!

 

[BluesBear]

295xxx should be around 1920 or earlier

 

[FPrice]

Well, I picked it up yesterday. $262.50 out the door (I did offer $300 the previous day). Have tried most of Jim March's checkout and it looks and feels good. Pretty tight lockup, bore looks almost brand new, generally in pretty good shape. The grips are original, have the serial number inside.

Some days it just pays to be in the right place.

 

[Old Fuff]

Looks very good and I think you have a winner. I suspect it was one of the last to sport commercial checkered grips rather then the wartime smooth walnut. Double check the bottom of the butt for an inspector's mark, but I don't think you'll find one. Do send Roy Jinks his reasonable fee and see what you find out. Should be very interesting.

 

[mec]

Oh how good! I think you paid like two dollars more than they were asking for mine. Love those map pictures too.


Heres one from December, 1900

 

[FPrice]

mec...

"I think you paid like two dollars more than they were asking for mine"

$12.50 went to the governor. Used to bve they did not charge sales tax on used firearms, then it changed about a year or two ago. The Commonwealth is having money problems.

"Love those map pictures too."

Thanks. I am looking for props like yours for better, more period correct pics of my older guns.

 

[mec]

What is truth?- L.P. Pilate:
They were asking $260 but came down to $240 tax and all. I left that out not wanting to sound like a hotshot bargainer.

 

[FPrice]

Old Fuff...

"Double check the bottom of the butt for an inspector's mark, but I don't think you'll find one."

The bottom of the butt is discolored, as if it had been heated. Something definitely happened there, some small amount of metal appears to be missing, perhaps ground or sanded off?

Anyways, my pistol has an "S" under the barrel, about 1/2" after the serial number. It also has an "S' on the front right side of the butt, with a smaller "O" a little below it. Towards the rear of the butt is a number, "86" or "26". On the front left side of the butt is what I think is an "E3" (the "3" is a bit indistinct). Towards the rear is what looks like an "H8".

I will be sneding a history request to Mr. Jinks.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think those are S&W inspector's marks. But lets see what Jinks has to say. It is possible some marks on the butt were removed when the gun was "released from service" and sold as surplus after the war. If it dates from after Pearl Harbor (12-7-41) I doubt it would have been a commercial sale, even though it would appear from your photographs that it was commercial finished and had commercial stocks. Very interesting ...

By the way, you paid far too much for it. Uncle Sam (or whoever) bought it brand new for $24.00 ...

 

[cxm]

Back Strap Markings

I believe the revolvers issued to the civilian (contract) guards at the Anniston Ordnance Plant werer marked AOP.

Seems a good chance your gun will letter to the Defense Supply Corp. who then assigned deliveries to various organizations under the "priority" system that was in effect at the time.

The priority system is an entire subject in it's self.

V/r

Chuck

 

[LWCmdr45]

I agree with Old Fuff's dating. I have several SN's in my data base that are close to yours that were delivered in Jan., 1942. The transition from checkered to smooth stocks was made from Nov., 1941 to Feb., 1942 (allowing inventory of checkered stocks to be depleted), so it confirms yours are appropriate. The butt would originally have been marked with the "W.B." initials of the Ordnance inspector and a "P" proof mark. Based on your description, they were evidently ground off by some "enterprising" later owner.

Steve

 

[Old Fuff]

LWCmdr45:

Given that the butt has apparently been defaced you may well be right, but at the time S&W was also selling revolvers to the Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC), a government agency that was charged with the responsibility of providing guns as well as other basic supplies to defense contractors and domestic police departments. These guns were sometimes inspected by military inspectors, but usually not - particularly during 1941 and very early 1942. That's why a letter from Roy Jinks, S&W's historian is so important. It will clear up all questions.

 

[mec]

It might be well to supply jinks with a picture or general description beyond the serial number. So many of these revolvers were being made that pin pointing an exact date in the 38- 40s time frame is pretty approximate.