S&W M15-2 'Smithing Questions

[farscott]

I stumbled onto a rather "well-used" M15-2 with a four-inch barrel. According to Supica & Nahas, the revolver dates to 1967 (K742xxx), which happens to be the year of my birth. Like me, the revolver is not in as good a condition in which it left the factory, but unlike me, it can be fixed. There are a few marks on the triggerguard, some freckling on the cylinder, a few rust flecks on the frame near the cylinder release, and some bluing wear near the muzzle. The case colors are close to perfect, and the revolver passed the "test" pinned to the top of this forum. Mechanically, the revolver is 100%, but the finish is around 80%. I figure that I did okay for $150 out the door. Due to the wear, the lack of a box and tools, and the sheer number of this model produced, this sample is not a collectible.

With this in mind, I have decided to "spruce up" the old gal. I have always liked the two-inch M15's, but the going rate around this area is insane (over $550) . I am considering swapping the four-inch tube for a two-inch, but I am wondering what parts I need besides the barrel. I know I need a new cylinder center pin, a locking pin, a new rear sight leaf, and a new ejector rod, but I am not sure if I need any other parts. I see Numrich has parts for a M15-4 in stock, but I am unsure if these are compatible with a M15-2 (especially the rear sight leaf). Any pitfalls in doing this conversion?

Does it make (financial) sense to change the M15-2 into a two-inch or does it make more sense to keep looking for a reasonably priced two-inch M15? I would like to refinish the revolver in hard chrome since the original bluing is so damaged, and I would like to use this revolver in the humid summer.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have owned a number of four-inch Model 15 Combat Masterpieces and been well satisfied with them. A two-inch was a bit of a disappointment because I found the frame and grip to be oversized for so short a barrel. If I were in your shoes I’d consider shorting the present barrel to three inches, (if I shortened it at all) and have the front sight relocated. You wouldn’t have to buy any new parts and would retain the longer ejection rod. The result would be a better sized and balanced revolver, and if this was intended to be a concealed carry gun you might want to round the butt, or at least round the bottom corners in the manner done on the Colt Detective Special. Following any modifications you could refinish the gun in any manner you chose.

Be aware that the four-inch barrel has a narrow rib, where the two-inch has a wide one and so won’t perfectly match up at the frame.

 

[Gordon]

I'd have somebody who knew what they were doing screw in the factory 2" model 15-4 barrel which should be identical to a 15-2 one. I think 15 2" guns are cool in the way they handle and you can adjust sights. Unless you do what old fuff says and go the full custom route.

 

[farscott]

Old Fuff,

Thanks for the advice. Luckily for me, I know I like the two-inch barrel on the K-frame square-butt since I own a 1948-vintage M&P in this configuration. I do like the idea of round-butting the frame since it does make it much easier to carry.

I was not aware of the difference in rib widths between the two-inch and four-inch versions, so that will impact my course of action. I also like the three-inch barrel idea, so I need to make some decisions. Thanks for the great information.

 

[mikey357]

...another "Solution" to your "problem" would be to sell the four-inch K-38 to another who appreciates Smith revo's and buy a correct two-inch outright...hint, hint....mikey357

 

[Bullet Bob]

The best solution is one of each...

Heritage model


This one's been hard chromed - it was my "car gun" for years.

 

[Mannlicher]

I have had success using Smith & Wesson to work on used revolvers. They send it back looking good, working perfectly, and the cost is reasonable.

 

[Jim March]

First, you did REAL good so far on price. This is exactly what the checkout is supposed to do: help pick a mechanically good "ugly duckling" for dirt cheap .

My suggestion: have you considered a 3" barrel?

Here's why:

1) The gun isn't going to be a "front pocket companion" no matter what (due to grip size, sights, frame size, etc.), and that's the only carry method that really needs a 2" (well, that and ankle). Yet the 4" tube makes some shoulder rigs (such as horizontal carry) and IWB something of a pain. 3" makes both IWB and horizontal shoulder work.

2) While we're FINALLY seeing 38+P combat ammo "tuned" for 2" barrel performance, having an extra inch to accellerate hollowpoints into their "expansion zone" is always nice. It opens up your available ammo choices some, and gives extra peace of mind.

3) The 3" barrel lets you run a full-length ejector rod.

4) By chopping the current barrel and having it properly crowned, assuming it shoots well right now you're guaranteed no loss in accuracy (same barrel as now) and maybe a healthy gain from a fresh crown. But at least no worse. So you must see what it's capable of now.

5) With a chopped barrel, you'll need to start completely fresh with a front sight. A ramped base for a dovetailed Tritium insert would be seriously cool. Ashley has such bases with the final Tritium insert available in multiple heights and both "dot sizes" (small or large) ready for your gunsmith to order. For a barrel that short, I'd recommend a "small dot tritium" setup, which will work well even without swapping the rear sight.

If you can afford it, consider a roundbutt conversion if it isn't already (and I don't think it is).

Once the chop and crown is done and new front sight soldered down, re-blue and go.

 

[jimthel]

I would go the 3" bbl. route, too. Changing barrels requires the proper barrel wrench with inserts. Here the labor on changing the barrel is about $100 by the time one figures recutting the forcing cone if necessary. On the other hand doing this you can have any endshake taken out, set to minimum headspace and pick your barrel cylinder gap. There is also the cost of the barrel. If you cut your current barrel Weigand makes a sight replacement with interchangeable blades.

As noted above the 3" barrel allows the full length ejector rod

 

[farscott]

Mikey357,

I might be persuaded to part with the M15-2 since I just found an M67 (no dash) at the same place. Like the M15-2, it is mechanically pristine; however, the finish has quite a few scratches. I only had to give $200 for that one since it had not been cleaned since Ronald Reagan was the sitting President. Cleaning it was truly a nightmare and explains the low sales price. However, it also passed the test, and it too is a shooter.

Mr. March,

The three-inch barrel route does seem promising, and I might go that route. Your logic about the two-inch barrel is sound, but the look of the K-frame snubbie gets me. The three-inch barrel might be a great compromise length. I currently carry old stock Federal Nyclads in my .38's, and they too would benefit from the extra inch of barrel.

I might also leave the revolver alone since it shoots so darn well. Still, an easy-to-carry barrel would be nice, and I love the look of a hard-chromed K-frame.

[eta] Round butt. Hmm. Now that would make a very nice carry revolver. That one might go to the top of the list.

 

[Jim March]

Jimthel is right: if the gap is nastily oversize, a full-on barrel swap allows that to get fixed. I failed to mention that. My bad.

So: if it shoots well now AND has a decent gap (IMHO: .005 is the most I like on a 38Spl 3" and I prefer less), then chopping an inch off of this barrel and re-crowning makes sense.

If it doesn't shoot well and/or has a crappy oversize gap, or there's any evidence of forcing cone damage (rear of barrel, inspect carefully), then a barrel swap may be the better answer.

 

[Old Fuff]

Farscott:

Since you are expanding your horizons these are some additional options you might want to consider:

Smith & Wesson Model 14 (K-38 Target Masterpiece). Excluding production made before 1953 more or less) these 6-inch target revolvers came with the heavy-ribbed barrel. Unlike the 4-inch Combat Masterpiece that used the prior narrow-ribbed barrel, a model 15 2-inch barrel will correctly match up to a model 14 frame. If a model 14 was re-barreled in this fashion the resulting revolver would be identical to the model 15/2-inch. As 6-inch, .38 Special target revolvers are somewhat unpopular in today’s marketplace they can sometimes be purchased for attractive prices.

Numrich Arms/The Gunparts Corp. (www.e-gunparts.com) have some demilled K-38 Heavy Barrels that are cut off at 3 inches. The could be crowned and a new front sight mounted (more on that in a minute). The barrel only costs $10.70 plus shipping. They also have the front half for $8.50. These include the front sight, which could be remounted on the first barrel. Not counting labor or refinishing, the barrel and sight components would only cost $19.20. You might recover some or all of this by selling the 6-inch barrel, or do the same thing by altering the original barrel to 3-inches in the first place.

You can also mount a 3†model 10 heavy barrel on a model 16, but you would have to remove the front sight blade and replace it with a higher one. Given the short barrel length I don’t think a ramp would be necessary.

Last but not least, if you want a K-frame, round butt snubby consider a model 19 (blue or nickel) or model 66 (stainless steel) with a 2 ½ -inch barrel – they have just about everything you want out-of-the-box.

 

[farscott]

Old Fuff,

Thanks for the information on the "demilled" barrels and some other options. The barrel parts make a lot of sense to buy and put away in the "stock room"; one never knows when one might need a few parts. I will be placing my order today.

I will be looking for the K-38 Target Masterpiece/M14 for use as a base gun. I much prefer the M15/M67 to the M19/M66 since most used Combat Magnums I have run across have forcing cone damage or bent crane/yoke assemblies. The .38's are also less expensive than the .357 Magnums, and I only plan on shooting .38's. I have also found that the K-38 Masterpieces seem to balance a bit better for me.

One question: You mentioned an M16, which I thought to be the rather rare K-32 Masterpiece. I would not think that would be a good choice to do my sort of project. Did you mean M15?

 

[Old Fuff]

Oh darn ...!! One of my many typos.

What I should have said was that a model 10/3-inch/H.B. will fit on a MODEL 14 (K-38 Target Masterpiece) not the mod 16 or 15. It all has too do with the width of the barrel rib. The only advantage of using a model 10/3-inch barrel is that the markings on the side of the barrel will be centered, and you wouldn't have to re-crown the muzzle. On the other hand you would have to fit a new front sight blade because the original one is way too low.

This brings me to something else. Today's snubbies usually feature barrels with thick ribs and very low front sight blades. Then they are sloped and/or shaped in a manner that results in a "gray" sight picture. You can install colored inserts (or a fast paint job) but I don’t find them to be a good solution. Also, you cannot hold up the blade in the notch to take a long shot, as the rib will block out the rear sight notch.

Now some will say you can’t hit a bull in the behind with a snub-gun at ranges over 7 yards. That may be so with them, but I have dropped 6 out of 6 into the K-zone of a silhouette target at a measured 100 yards with an old “pencil barreled†Detective Special. I could do this because it had a high blade that I could hold it up in the rear notch to take long shots.

So if on the proposed revolver the front sight ramp is eliminated and a high (but wide) blade is substituted you can have any kind of shape you want, incorporate any dots or inserts you like, and be able to hold-over for long shots – even with a 3-inch barrel. Of course you can make the same kind of set-up with one of Numrich’s cut-off demills for less money and simply polish off or ignore the markings.

The really important point is that the model 14 (K-38 Target Masterpiece) frame matches up with S&W wide-rib barrels, from which you have several to pick from, where the model 15 (K-38 Combat Masterpiece) doesn’t.

For the record, there is (or was) a narrow-ribbed 3-inch barrel that was intended to be used on pencil-barreled model 10’s. This could be installed on a model 15 with a new front sight blade. But they are seldom seen, and I don’t know where you could find one.

I know that model 19 (or 66) revolvers command higher prices, and I agree with you concerning the .38 Special cartridges in this size of guns. However before you get done I suspect you will have more time and money involved in making a .38 then you would have had buying a Combat Magnum with a 2 ½ or 3-inch barrel that was still in good shape.

For my own part, this doesn’t matter. I have a bad attitude problem, to wit: If the factory doesn’t make what “I†want, I will make what I want. Sometimes I do my own work and on other occasions I have someone else do it. I try to use knowledge to reduce cost, but in the end if I want what I want badly enough I’ll pay the price.

I wish you good luck on your project.

 

[farscott]

Old Fuff,

Thanks again for the informative and courteous reply. I must be like you in that I will spend more to get what I want if the factory offering does not meet my needs and/or wants. Since the base revolvers are so inexpensive and of such high quality, I have no qualms sinking good money into them to make good guns.

I am also convinced of the accuracy potential of short-barreled revolvers after extensive shooting of an old M34 in .22 LR. I was impressed by how well the revolver shot at the 50-yard mark. If I did my part, the hits would come. Interesting commentary about the sights. As my eyes age (at the tender age of 36, I needed bifocals), the importance of a highly-visible front sight becomes greater and greater. The sight that seems to work the best for me is the Patridge; of course, it is the sight that gets the most practice, being on my K-22 Masterpieces.

BTW, I placed my order for the barrel stubs and the three-inch barrel sections with Numrich. Thanks again for the good lead.

 

[BluesBear]

The rear sight assembly from a 15-4 will NOT fit on a 15-2. The holes won't match up. You can however just change the sight blade. If you do the conversion I'd shoot it first to determine if you even need to do this.

Since your 15-2 is one of the last ones made, if it was me, I'd keep it as a shooter/house gun and get a 2" for carry.
You'll be suprised to find that the 4" conceals almost as well as the 2"

 

[farscott]

I received part of my order from Numrich, the three-inch fixed-sight K-frame barrels. While the barrels look like S&W parts, the rollmarks are interesting. The caliber marking is ".38 Special", not ".38 S&W Special". I have never seen an S&W barrel so marked. Any ideas? Did Numrich rollmark these?