S&W model 67 inherent accuracy

[kannonfyre]

There's a common saying that "it's not the arrow...it's the indian" or that "a bad carpenter blames his tools". I guess what I'm trying to ask is....What is the inherent accuracy of a S&W model 67 .38 Special revolver in serviceable condition with stock trigger and no modifications? The ammo in question is Magtech 158gr LRNs @ 755ft/s out of the barrel.

It seems to me that most guns are capable of being rather accurate. The weak link is the shooter himself or herself. With this in mind, I have been practicing weekly for the past two months and the best that I can do is a 6.5 inch wide group containing 40-45 shots. This is done at 25 meters using a weaver stance with no support. If only 6 well aims shots are used then the group shrinks to 3.5"s in diameter.

I guess what I am trying to say is that short of possessing the grip of a robot combined with a near mechanical and hence identical trigger pull backed up by 20/20 eyesight, is there a practical limit to the the accuracy that a non professional shooter can reliably produce with 40 shot strings?

 

[Z_Infidel]

Well, you're right in that only a small percentage of shooters are capable of shooting up to the accuracy potential of their guns. And a S&W .38Spl revolver in good condition can certainly be counted on to be quite accurate. But you haven't included all the relevant information. Were you shooting with the hammer cocked, trigger-cocking, or a combination of the two? Have you tried different types of ammo or just the one load? Do you have a good handle on the fundamentals of trigger control?

Besides, the results you described aren't what I would consider bad shooting.

 

[kannonfyre]

Good Day to you Infidel,

I shoot double action exclusively. My model 67 has a 14 lb trigger pull. My routine is to pull the trigger partially to "half cock" the hammer, get a clear sight picture using the "sub six" principle and the complete the trigger pull and hope for the best.

Usually, the first 6 - 18 rounds would be "in the black" or within the 7 - 10 rings of a ISSF 25 meter standard pistol target. After that, my trigger finger gets sore, fatigue sets in and flyers start to occur.

I have tested myself against the standard law enforcement qualification test of my country and was classed as a marksman (there are only fail, pass and marksman gradings, no expert) but I still harbour dreams of being able to place 40 rounds 25 meters downrange under time pressure into a 4.5" circle. Above all, I'd LOVE to be able to do what 50s US cops could do....that is hit COM with 6 out of 6 rounds ONE HANDED at 50 meters.

 

[MrBorland]

I agree with Z-Infidel, 3.5" 6-round groups from a standing position isn't bad shooting. My general guideline is that very good, but not great revolver shooting would be 3" at 25 yards, shot double action, standing 2-handed. Your gun may be capable of 1.5" at this distance.

Group size always opens up when shooting more rounds because we're not perfectly consistent in our shooting, and the more rounds you shoot per group, the more the inconsistency gets exposed. Work on consistency as well as accuracy.

With this said, then, my advice would be to stop shooting those 40-round groups for now! You're getting fatigued in the process and considering your goals, I'd say these mega-groups are counterproductive at the moment. Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes it permanent. Shooting when you know you're getting sloppy will help your brain hardwire itself to shoot sloppy. Keep shooting your 6-shot groups, and make every mental effort to make every shot count.

Sounds to me you're doing great. Keep up the good work and keep practicing!

 

[Old Fuff]

I shoot double action exclusively. My model 67 has a 14 lb trigger pull. My routine is to pull the trigger partially to "half cock" the hammer, get a clear sight picture...

To address the first question, "how accurate is the revolver?" At 25 meters it will probably shoot inside 1 1/2 to 2 inches. To experiment, try shooting off a bench using the single-action mode, and see how you do.

If you are going to shoot double-action exclusively I doubt that you will get target shooter groups. Yes, some U.S. police officers do shoot B-27 silhouette x-ring groups at 50 yards, but they generally don't do it with service revolvers, but rather special PPC guns with heavy 6 inch barrels and double-action trigger pulls reduced to around 8 pounds. Also at that distance they used two hands. You can reasonably expect to hit center-of-mass out to 100 yards using both hands however.

I suggest that you try an alternative technique. Turn the gun slightly to the right in your hand and pull the trigger until the tip of the trigger finger touches the front of the left-hand stock. Adjust your grip until this "touch" happens just before the hammer falls. Align your sights when the finger touches the stock , and then a slight additional movement will drop the hammer.

Rather then shooting a lot of ammunition, get a set of snap-caps and practice dry-firing at home on a small target. You want to perfect the coordination between your trigger pull and sight alignment. As you have observed, when you start you do O.K., but after 40 shots it doesn’t go so well. Is there some reason you have to do these 40 shots all at once?

 

[MrBorland]

Above all, I'd LOVE to be able to do what 50s US cops could do....that is hit COM with 6 out of 6 rounds ONE HANDED at 50 meters.

There were likely some exceptionally good marksman back then, just as there are now, but I wouldn't be too sure that the average cop of yore could do what you describe.

General proficiency with a double action revolver, though, may be something fewer and fewer shooters exhibit, and may alone be a good reason to keep practicing.

 

[SeanSw]

I handed over my model 67 and watched the shooter put 6 rounds into a target at 10 yards with all holes touching. It has never happened in my hands. 1.5"-2" at 25 yards seems quite possible with good ammunition but I've never found the standard 158gr LRN (cci blazer in my case) to be particularly accurate from my gun. It likes heavy bullets but for some reason it tends to shoot best with hotter ammo, which coincidentally, is probably of a higher quality.

I have an extra power cylinder stop spring and have gone between the stock and Wolf mainsprings. There is no need to bother with a different mainspring. With the strain screw at maximum depth I can dry fire hundreds of times. It was difficult at first, until I bought a Ruger, and now it seems quite reasonable!

 

[gizamo]

kannofyre,

Interesting thread. Guess the answer lies within you and what you need to accomplish. If you seek perfection as a Bullseye shooter, or just want to knock down some steel plates....

I find that smoothing the action of a S&W, and adjusting the trigger pull to break cleanly does more to improve accuracy in the individual shooter then anything else... Just in watching a rifle shooter go between double set triggers and single has an effect....

Any rate, it is as much about what you are tryin' to accomplish, and the road you take getting there.....

Giz

 

[kannonfyre]

Old Fuff,

I shoot 40 shot strings out of habit. When I was in college in the UK, the university gun club that I joined had this unofficial standing challenge....it was that who ever could get 40 rounds into a 1.5" group would get a pint of beer from each member of the club, and have his or her ammo bills paid for by the club for the next 6 months. The gun in question was a .22 revolver, the ammo was the lousiest fodder from Eley, the shooting was done two handed, no speed loader was to be used and the shot string had to be completed in 6.5 mins @ 25 meters. To compound difficulty, the trigger on the revolver was horrible and I suspect the barrel rifling was quite worn out.

Needless to say, very few managed to win this prize.

While the above mentioned challenge used .22LR and my favourite revolver round is the .38, I still have dreams of shooting quickly using full power LRN loads in a stock handgun and achieveing tight ISSF standard groups (4" or less) WITH large shot strings.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well at 25 meters the most difficult issue is keeping the sights aligned when the hammer falls. At any other time sight alignment is a moot point.

I have no idea what your hand size is, but the stocks should allow your fingers to reach the middle of the left hand side (for right handed shooters) and be long enough to reach slightly below the little finger. Do use a two-handed hold when you can. Also experiment with the technique of using the tip of your trigger finger to control the pull just before the hammer falls.

If you are going to shoot your model 67 exclusively in the double-action mode, consider adjusting the trigger stop to block further rearward movement of the trigger at the point where the hammer is released. After this you will not be able to thumb-cock the gun, but this modification can be reversed and will not change or damage the revolver. It may not have a trigger stop, but it is set up for one, and they are inexpensive and screw adjustable.

The .38 is fine, the advantage of a .22 is less expensive ammunition and lesser recoil so that you can see your mistakes.

 

[Hutch]

3.5" group at 25m double action, un-rested? That is DAMNED FINE shooting, in my book. You'd be cleaning up at NRA Hunter Pistol silhouette matches with that, and double action to boot! I am envious...

 

[kannonfyre]

Uh Hutch...

Me thinks y'need to read my original perimeters again. I'm NOT that great a shot. Firstly, I'm using magtech 158gr LRN rounds. These are not hotly loaded and have been known to leave the barrel at 730ft/s which is below their advertised 755ft/s. They are not softly loaded wadcutters but still......

Secondly, my 6 shot group was done under relaxed conditions with as long as 4-5 seconds per shot. Before I shot this group, I had a 120rd warm up.

Lastly, the captain of my country's IPSC team (police lieutenant) along with the highest scoring corrections officer and armed security guard can place 6 standard LRN service loads into a PLAYING CARD at 25 meters under timed stress and from a COLD START. I personally saw them doing this time and again with 30 shot strings.