S&W Model of 1917 vs 22-4 “Thunder Ranch”

[DocRock]

Not knowledgeable about Smith & Wesson double action revolvers, as this post will demonstrate.

I have however hankered after a 45acp revolver and always liked the looks of the 1917s. But I very recently came across the “Thunder Ranch” S&W. I’m a little confused. There seems to be a, what I would call “classic” 22-4 which also seems to be the “Model of 1950”? Then there is a “325”? Are there others?

Information on the different “Thunder Ranch” models would be appreciated as well as thoughts on comparisons and contrasts between the 1917 and the 22-4, which I understand to be the “classic” Thunder Ranch ? Thanks very much.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have a S&W Model 22-4 and it is similar to the fixed sight Model 1917's that were made during WWI. Basically, the Model 22's are fixed sight, N-frame, 45 caliber revolvers. I bought my 22-4 in 2013 and I believe it is part of the "Classic" series.

Before S&W went to Model numbers in the late 1950's, they had a Target Model 1950 with is an N-frame chambered in 45 ACP. Among other improvements, they have adjustable sights.

When S&W went to Model numbers, the Target Model became the Model 25. Most of the early 45 ACP Target Models are 25-2. The Model 25's have adjustable sights. The early ones are Target Models of 1950 and later Models are Target Models of 1955.

I think the Target Model of 1950 has a tapered barrel while the Target Model of 1955 has a bull barrel. But, my memory may be failing here.

After S&W introduced the Model 25-5 (45 Colt), the even number dash numbers are chambered in 45 ACP and the odd numbered dash numbers are chambered in 45 Colt.

A look through the "The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" book will provide the details but mine is not convenient to access at present.

I'm not sure where the "Thunder Ranch" versions fit in this but S&W always takes special run orders from folks willing to buy a sufficient quantity of guns to make the special run worth while.

I hope this helps.

 

[DocRock]

I have a S&W Model 22-4 and it is similar to the fixed sight Model 1917's that were made during WWI. Basically, the Model 22's are fixed sight, N-frame, 45 caliber revolvers. I bought my 22-4 in 2013 and I believe it is part of the "Classic" series.

Before S&W went to Model numbers in the late 1950's, they had a Target Model 1950 with is an N-frame chambered in 45 ACP. Among other improvements, they have adjustable sights.

When S&W went to Model numbers, the Target Model became the Model 25. Most of the early 45 ACP Target Models are 25-2. The Model 25's have adjustable sights. The early ones are Target Models of 1950 and later Models are Target Models fo 1955.

I think the Target Model of 1950 has a tapered barrel while the Target Model of 1955 has a bull barrel. But, my memory may be failing here.

After S&W introduced the Model 25-5 (45 Colt), the even number dash numbers are chambered in 45 ACP and the odd numbered dash numbers are chambered in 45 Colt.

A look through the "Smith and Wesson Standard Catalog" book will provide the details but mine is not convenient to access at present.

I'm not sure where the "Thunder Ranch" versions fit in this but S&W always takes special run orders from folks willing to buy a sufficient quantity of guns to make the special run worth while.

I hope this helps.

Thank you. A vast increase in my knowledge on the subject and a basis for some more research.

 

[cfullgraf]

To add, there are both 45 Colt and 45 ACP Model 25's in the dash 3 and dash 4 series.

It gets confusing without a dance card.

With the the Model 25-5's, S&W seems to have followed the convention with Model 25's that odd dash numbers are chambered in 45 Colt while even dash numbers are chambered in 45 ACP.

 

[35 Whelen]

I own a 1917 and a 21-4 (.44 Special) Thunder Ranch. The main real world difference is the sights; while both are fixed sights, 1917's have the small, more difficult to see sights while the Thunder Ranch has larger combat type sights.

35W

 

[StrawHat]

When the US was debating getting involved in WWI, S&W realized the military would need more pistols than Colt could supply. The engineers at S&W were tasked with modifying the N frame to handle the 45 ACP cartridge. Chambering and firing a rimless cartridge was not a problem. Getting the fired case out of the cylinder was the issue. S&W came up with two solutions, metal clips that held 3 or 6 cartridges in place and gave the ejector star something to eject. The military opted for the 1/2 moon clip as it was simpler and allowed for more compact storage of loaded ammunition.

The Model 1917 Hand Ejector



After the war, S&W continued to build the same revolver and it differs from the Military very only by the inclusion of the S&W logo.

A Commercial 1917



A few of the 1917s were altered to include target sights but there was no real “target model” in 45 ACP until 1950.

Prior to WWII, the Brazilian Government placed an order for the Model 1917 revolver. These were built with the commercial model.

A Brazilian 1917 with the barrel shortened to 4”.



After WWII ended many gunsmiths offered conversion of the standard S&W “long action” to a shorter trigger pull. It was popular enough that S&W came out with their own version in 1950 and upgraded all of their lines.

Here is a Model 1950 Hand Ejector 45 ACP Army. The differences noticeable are hammer shape, no visible stud under the thumb piece and much better sights. The rear sight is a squared notch and the front sight is 1/8” wide. The front sight on this particular revolver has been modified by a previous owner who used the piece.



Also in 1950, S&W introduced the first of the Target grade 45 ACP revolvers, the Model 1950. This included the short action, a reinforced ejector lug and target sights.



In 1955, S&W “improved” the 1950 Target Model with the addition of a heavier barrel.



In 1957, S&W started using numbers to designate the different models. The 1950 Army became the Model 22, the 1950 Target became the Model 26 and the 1955 Target became the Model 25. The Model 26 was discontinued in 1961. The Model 22 was discontinued in 1966 and the Model 25-2 was discontinued in 1991.

In 2005, S&W introduced the Model 22-4, Thunder Ranch Revolver. This is a 4” version of the 1950 Army Model but added a reinforced ejector lug.



Two years later, 2007, a standard version was also included in the line up. The only difference was the Thunder Ranch Model used TRR to start the serial number and the standard version did not. The standard version was available blued, nickel plated or with a casehardened frame.




Also available in 2007 was the “Classic Model of 1917” which in reality was just a reintroduction of the Model 1950 Army. It too could be blued, nickle plated, or case hardened.



There were also various engineering changes (direction of threads, etc) but I tried to highlight the major differences.

S&W also introduced the 625 series of revolvers in stainless steel but the OP did not ask about those.

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

I reread Post 1. There was a question about other models, the 325 series. I am only lightly familiar with those. The same with the 625 series.

The big differences to me comparing my first edc, the 4” Brazilian, with my current edc, the Model 22-4 are,

weight, the 22-4 is heavier.

long action (1917) vs short action (22-4)

better sights on the 22-4 from the factory

slightly shorter grip frame on the 22-4

ability of the 22-4 to handle heavier loads than the 1917.


Kevin

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

When the US was debating getting involved in WWI, S&W realized the military would need more pistols than Colt could supply. The engineers at S&W were tasked with modifying the N frame to handle the 45 ACP cartridge. Chambering and firing a rimless cartridge was not a problem. Getting the fired case out of the cylinder was the issue. S&W came up with two solutions, metal clips that held 3 or 6 cartridges in place and gave the ejector star something to eject. The military opted for the 1/2 moon clip as it was simpler and allowed for more compact storage of loaded ammunition.

The Model 1917 Hand Ejector

View attachment 994455

After the war, S&W continued to build the same revolver and it differs from the Military very only by the inclusion of the S&W logo.

A Commercial 1917

View attachment 994456

A few of the 1917s were altered to include target sights but there was no real “target model” in 45 ACP until 1950.

Prior to WWII, the Brazilian Government placed an order for the Model 1917 revolver. These were built with the commercial model.

A Brazilian 1917 with the barrel shortened to 4”.

View attachment 994458

After WWII ended many gunsmiths offered conversion of the standard S&W “long action” to a shorter trigger pull. It was popular enough that S&W came out with their own version in 1950 and upgraded all of their lines.

Here is a Model 1950 Hand Ejector 45 ACP Army. The differences noticeable are hammer shape, no visible stud under the thumb piece and much better sights. The rear sight is a squared notch and the front sight is 1/8” wide. The front sight on this particular revolver has been modified by a previous owner who used the piece.

View attachment 994459

Also in 1950, S&W introduced the first of the Target grade 45 ACP revolvers, the Model 1950. This included the short action, a reinforced ejector lug and target sights.

View attachment 994462

In 1955, S&W “improved” the 1950 Target Model with the addition of a heavier barrel.

View attachment 994463

In 1957, S&W started using numbers to designate the different models. The 1950 Army became the Model 22, the 1950 Target became the Model 26 and the 1955 Target became the Model 25. The Model 26 was discontinued in 1961. The Model 22 was discontinued in 1966 and the Model 25-2 was discontinued in 1991.

In 2005, S&W introduced the Model 22-4, Thunder Ranch Revolver. This is a 4” version of the 1950 Army Model but added a reinforced ejector lug.

View attachment 994464

Two years later, 2007, a standard version was also included in the line up. The only difference was the Thunder Ranch Model used TRR to start the serial number and the standard version did not. The standard version was available blued, nickel plated or with a casehardened frame.

View attachment 994465


Also available in 2007 was the “Classic Model of 1917” which in reality was just a reintroduction of the Model 1950 Army. It too could be blued, nickle plated, or case hardened.

View attachment 994467

There were also various engineering changes (direction of threads, etc) but I tried to highlight the major differences.

S&W also introduced the 625 series of revolvers in stainless steel but the OP did not ask about those.

Kevin

Wow, great collection of .45 revolvers!

 

[Tallball]

Wow Strawhat. Your collection is amazing. Those must be fantastic to shoot.

As for the 625, I happen to have one. It looked lonely in the used counter at the LGS. I think it has "target model of 1988" on the barrel. It's a modern stainless version with a full underlug. It has nice big adjustable sights and the trigger is pretty good. The empties come out so easily that I don't bother with moonclips at the range. I'd prefer one of the beautiful antique revolvers like Strawhat has, but the 625 was affordable and is a good shooter. I shoot it often.

Smith And Wesson Model 625

• Tallball
• Apr 5, 2018

 

[kidneyboy]

I have a 625 Model of 1988, like Tallball has posted, and had a Thunder Ranch 325. The Thunder Ranch Version has a scandium frame and 4" barrel. There was also a 325PD with scandium frame and 2" or 2.5" barrel. The much lighter 325 was a handful for me to shoot.

 

[DocRock]

I reread Post 1. There was a question about other models, the 325 series. I am only lightly familiar with those. The same with the 625 series.

The big differences to me comparing my first edc, the 4” Brazilian, with my current edc, the Model 22-4 are,

weight, the 22-4 is heavier.

long action (1917) vs short action (22-4)

better sights on the 22-4 from the factory

slightly shorter grip frame on the 22-4

ability of the 22-4 to handle heavier loads than the 1917.


Kevin

Wow! Strawhat, S&W may need to contract you for assembling their history. Thank you very much for an excellent explanation that addressed all my questions and was hugely educational. And for sharing photos !

 

[nofendertom]

And there was also a 625 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP---4in, thin barrel, adj sights in stainless steel.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I don't think I can add anything to what StrawHat said.

 

[Pat Riot]

What a great thread! Thank you everybody.
StrawHat, I appreciate your model explanations and photos.

 

[Terry G]

1935 re-import. A good shooter!

 

[StrawHat]

Wow, great collection of .45 revolvers!

It has taken a few years to amass them all. I started with 45 ACP revolvers back in the 70s.

...Wow Strawhat. Your collection is amazing. Those must be fantastic to shoot. ...

The 4” barrels get shot more than the others because I carry them. The 1917s get out, maybe 4 times a year. The 1950 Army and 1950 Target revolvers have only recently come to live with me so only one range date so far. The Model 25-2 was used in competition, it is an old friend. And, I have duplicates of some.


Much of my shooting is done with cast RN bullets at hardball ballistics. The Model 22-4s are rated for up go 45 Super so they have been loaded a bit heavier. My “standard” load in all of them, including my EDC revolvers is a 235 grain full wadcutter (SAECO 453) at hardball velocities. It has a bit of smackdown.

Wow! Strawhat, S&W may need to contract you for assembling their history. Thank you very much for an excellent explanation that addressed all my questions and was hugely educational. And for sharing photos !

All I know I have learned from reading others posts, The Standard Catalog of S&W (Supica and Nahas) and the writings of Dr Roy Jinks, historian emeritus of S&W.

And there was also a 625 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP---4in, thin barrel, adj sights in stainless steel.

Got one of them also.

I don't think I can add anything to what StrawHat said.

I am humbled.

What a great thread! Thank you everybody.
StrawHat, I appreciate your model explanations and photos.

If you have any questions, please ask. I am happy to share shat I know.


There is one 45 caliber S&W revolver I do not have but that is a topic for another thread if I am asked.


Kevin

 

[mcb]

For a thread on 45 ACP revolvers there are shockingly few moonclips in this thread.



You guys need to help fix that! The 45 ACP revolver brought the moonclip, in it various forms, to as much of a forefront as it ever saw. We need more moonclips to go with our 45 ACP revolvers! Moonclips rule!

 

[tmd16556]

Moonclips are ok but 45 Auto Rim brass is cooler.

 

[cfullgraf]

You guys need to help fix that! The 45 ACP revolver brought the moonclip, in it various forms, to as much of a forefront as it ever saw. We need more moonclips to got with our 45 ACP revolvers! Moonclips rule!

I like moon clips. Besides my several 45 ACP revolvers, I have a couple 9x19 revolvers that use moon clips., an S&W 610 (10mm) and a three 38 Special J-frames machined to accept moon clips.

I even have some half moon clips for the 45 ACP revolvers in case I wish to carry one. Half moon clips are a bit easier to carry than the full moon clips.

I just do not see the need to add loading 45 Auto Rim to my reloading capability. I already have the capability to load more than 30 different cartridges. Besides, I use the same cartridges in my 45 ACP semi-autos and I do in my 45 ACP revolvers.

 

[Pat Riot]

If you have any questions, please ask. I am happy to share shat I know.


There is one 45 caliber S&W revolver I do not have but that is a topic for another thread if I am asked.

Not to hijack this thread, but would you please?

 

[StrawHat]

For a thread on 45 ACP revolvers there are shockingly few moonclips in this thread.



You guys need to help fix that! The 45 ACP revolver brought the moonclip, in it various forms, to as much of a forefront as it ever saw. We need more moonclips to go with our 45 ACP revolvers! Moonclips rule!

S&W patented two clips in 1915 or 1916. One, the common 1/2 moon and the other, a reather complicated affair that held six founds. The Army wisely choose the three round clip. It packed well. They devised two ways to ship the loaded clips. Commonly referred to as spooned and nested.



There was also a machine to load the rounds into the clips.





Sometime in the late 60s or 70s some shooters tried to weld two half moons together to creat a six round clip. Ranch Products came up with the idea of the inverted or daisy arrangement.
I keep a few moon clips with each revolver.


Kevin

 

[mcb]

View attachment 994853


S&W patented two clips in 1915 or 1916. One, the common 1/2 moon and the other, a reather complicated affair that held six founds. The Army wisely choose the three round clip. It packed well. They devised two ways to ship the loaded clips. Commonly referred to as spooned and nested.

View attachment 994851 View attachment 994852

There was also a machine to load the rounds into the clips.

View attachment 994853 View attachment 994853

Sometime in the late 60s or 70s some shooters tried to weld two half moons together to creat a six round clip. Ranch Products came up with the idea of the inverted or daisy arrangement.
I keep a few moon clips with each revolver.


Kevin

I have meet several of the guys at Ranch Products. I grew up, about 30 miles north of them in Ohio.

I keep a couple more than a few moonclips with each of my revolvers.



This is only about 1/3 of the moonclips I have for each of the N-frames. Though each of those cases is usually sufficient to shoot a club level USPSA match. I love moonclip feed revolvers, nothings better than beating the bottom feeders with the round gun.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Strawhat, glad there is a bigger .45 ACP revo guy than me. Nice collection; I let a '55 target go some years ago, and still kick myself.
Use AutoRims for some stuff, including light loads for a 325 (yeah, they are an ugly handful with ball); if you really want to make yourself say 'pshaw' and 'darn', let a regular ACP mix itself among the AutoRims; the press will shove the brass into the sizing die...but not pull it back out. Pshaw!
Moon

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

For a thread on 45 ACP revolvers there are shockingly few moonclips in this thread.

View attachment 994667

You guys need to help fix that! The 45 ACP revolver brought the moonclip, in it various forms, to as much of a forefront as it ever saw. We need more moonclips to go with our 45 ACP revolvers! Moonclips rule!

Here you go.

Two, three, six.

 

[mcb]

Here you go.

Two, three, six.

Much better!