S&W: Only Five Rounds???

[spwenger]

Two Points

1.

I remember hearing of a FBI report from the 80's stating that most shootings involving non-leos took place at abut 7 feet involving 3 rounds or less.

I am not aware of the FBI ever studying justifiable shootings by private citizens. I believe that the study in question, whatever its merits and demerits, involved only police reports.

2. Yes, five rounds is not a lot, considering that even a well placed handgun round may not solve the problem instantly with a single shot and you may encounter more than one assailant. That said, my own philosophy is to carry at least two of the five-round revolvers at a time. Without even getting into the spare eleven rounds I currently carry, I'm more comfortable carrying ten rounds in two guns than sixteen rounds in a single gun. Carrying a gun accessible to either hand allows me to draw and fire even if one hand is occupied deflecting an attack or has already been wounded. Carrying a second gun allows me to arm a companion who may know how to shoot but may not be carrying a gun of her own. Two armed people, ideally behind separate pieces of cover, make a better defense than one person with a few extra rounds to fling. (And even merely five rounds of a decent .38 Special load is a better bet than two rounds from a derringer of some sort.)

 

[The_Shootist]

Most of the Time...maybe..

All I know is that post Katrina news reports indicate in the Houston-Galveston area a higher porbability of multiple (ie 3-4) attackers.

Now, if you pull a snubby, that actually might be enough to dissuade them. Afterall, NONE of the 3-4 attackers want to get shot but displaying a revolver gives a higher probability that ONE (maybe more) will take a .38 for the hometeam.

So I have 2 guns out that do regular service - my Taurus M85 ( w/2 speedloaders) for out and about during the day (and night more often than not during the summer). The second one is my G19 with 1 mag reload for trips closer / in Houston . I figure if 30 rds of GS 9mm +P can't at least get me under cover or out of the neighborhood, I should have tossed my WASR in the back of the truck or (better) stayed at home under my bed that day.

But a snubby takes practice - LOTS of practice but after a short time you'll be surprised at how good you get with some determination. So much so I almost just tossed my Glock back in the safe and started carrying the snub exclusively.

Almost

 

[gruesomenewsom]

But a snubby takes practice - LOTS of practice

Amen to that. I thought I was a decent shot until I bought my 642 2 months ago. The first time I shot it I was barely hitting the plywood backstop at 7 yards! I have been carrying my ruger p345 for now b/c the gun is concealable for me, and i can shoot it accurately and comfortably. But once summertime rolls around I gotta get some practice in with that snubby.

P.S. If you buy the 642 get the pachmayr compacs $25 and worth every penny

 

[Rembrandt]

....Only Five Rounds???....Is that going to be sufficient for self-defense??? (I'm not so sure I'd feel safe with that).

If you miss with the first five....what makes you more comfortable thinking the sixth one will hit its mark?

 

[Soybomb]

If you knew how many rounds you'd need, you'd probably not even go there Odds are you'll never need a gun. Odds are you'll not need to fire your gun if you pull it out. If you're having a bad enough day that you needed a gun and needed to shoot it maybe you'll be having a bad enough day to wish you had 3 17 round 9mm mags too. The j-frame isn't the perfect gun on paper by any stretch but it works out a lot better than you'd think. It conceals well in the pocket, has reasonably decent ballistics, and will probaobly do the job.

I believe the colt detective special is a similar size and carries 6 maybe...?

If you miss with the first five....what makes you more comfortable thinking the sixth one will hit its mark?

Who says you're even missing? On tv people drop like a rock when they're been hit. In real life the handgun isn't quite that great of an instant stopper and sometimes take several rounds to stop, if that.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm not sure why a snubby takes more practice than anything else. If you're comfortable holding a DA steady while squeezing the trigger, I don't think it's much different.

If you're used to a SAA or 1911, it's WAY different, though. That's just as true of a 686 in DA mode; it will take some practice if you're used to touching off a cocked hammer. I suppose you can be a bit sloppier with a heavier gun and not miss the paper, but it has a pretty heavy DA pull.

 

[glockman19]

Practice and shot placement are more important than the number of rounds IMHO.

 

[ArmedBear]

If you miss with the first five....what makes you more comfortable thinking the sixth one will hit its mark?

Why does the guy I hunt with insist that he really needs 3 shots in his shotgun?

I almost invariably have one more bird in my bag, despite having 2 shots at a time.

He also uses a full choke on nearby birds, so he can "hit them hard so they go down". My IC/M O/U points quicker and hits them better, at hunting ranges.

"More is better" may be an American instinct, but it's often not true.

If I lived where the NOLA scum ended up, I suppose I'd figure on multiple assailants. But then 6 wouldn't be enough, either.

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW I think that snap-cap practice is probably more important than range time with something like a 642.

Assuming you already know how to hit a target with a pistol, the challenge is holding the light gun steady while pulling the DA trigger. You can practice that for free in your living room daily for a minute or two, and learn more than you will ever learn at the range with live ammo.

 

[Crimp]

I feel very comfortable with my lady.

 

[spwenger]

Why It May Be Harder To Hit With a Snubby

I'm not sure why a snubby takes more practice than anything else. If you're comfortable holding a DA steady while squeezing the trigger, I don't think it's much different.

For most people a snubby is a J-frame S&W or a close approximation of it, such as a Taurus. The traditional grip stocks on these small-frame revolvers often fail to fill the hand enough to stabilize the gun in recoil (and the gun is already in recoil when the bullet leaves the barrel). Further, these guns are light to start with and many people opt for the Airweight or lighter versions. This results in placing somewhere between eight to 12 pounds of pressure on the trigger of a gun whose weight is most easily expressed in ounces. To make matters worse, the added recoil that comes with the lighter weight is not conducive to good training, and can easily induce anticipation of the shot. For this reason, someone who may be competent with the double-action trigger on a K-frame (or larger) S&W revolver, may face an additional challenge shooting a J-frame one accurately.

The first step is to fit the gun with grip stocks that adequately stabilize it in your hand, preferably without compromising too much concealibility. My own preference is for Craig Spegel's hand-carved Boot Grips, with Jim Badger's boot grips as a slightly larger alternative. Some folks do fine simply with the addition of a Tyler T-Grip and others demand the larger size of a Pachmayr Compac (which is also a bit on the tacky side.) Most of my comments have been oriented toward male shooters, who may find the J-frame revolver small for their K-frame-size hands. For the woman who has small enough fingers that the finger grooves on some of these options are an encumbrance, the open-back Pachmayr Compac Professional is an option. (From top to bottom, the T-Grip, the Spegel Boot Grip and the Pachmayr Compac Professional can be seen in the attached photo.)

Once that is done, it's time for lots of safe dry-fire. Again, the two-handed grasp that may work for a guy with average-size hands on a K-frame revolver may produce interference between the support-hand thumb and the tip of the trigger finger on the smaller gun. I think it's safe to say that it's easier for someone who has mastered the small-frame revolver to transition to a medium-frame or large-frame revolver (as long as she has large enough hands) than to go in the other direction.

 

[gruesomenewsom]

i dont think i could have said it better myself. plus you have to take into consideration my gp-100 da and p345 da have 3-5 inches between the front and rear sights. the 642 has what maybe 2"? The slightest movement in hand is the difference between a 10-shot and just barely hitting the paper.

 

[glockman19]

the 642 has what maybe 2"?

1-7/8

 

[Slamfire]

More is better, but I have not figured out how to put a belt fed machine gun in my waist band. And then there is the issue of those darn ammo belts....

 

[Dean407]

Some may use it as a primary CCW gun, but many use it as a back up gun.

It's super thin and easy to take anywhere.

 

[arizona98tj]

All I know is that post Katrina news reports indicate in the Houston-Galveston area a higher porbability of multiple (ie 3-4) attackers.

Now, if you pull a snubby, that actually might be enough to dissuade them. Afterall, NONE of the 3-4 attackers want to get shot but displaying a revolver gives a higher probability that ONE (maybe more) will take a .38 for the hometeam.

If one is out and about in a Katrina post-hurricane scenario and one is armed with just a 5 shot revolver, one may very well deserve what one comes across as one's situational awareness sucks about as much as it possibly could. One would have to be in the "bleached totally white" zone if one hadn't figured out what must have happened in the past 24 hours.

I do believe what one's CCW weapon should be based on more than just what goes well with the pants and shirt that is coming out of the closet.

 

[ArmedBear]

No, I think he was talking about being in Galveston when the fine upstanding residents of New Orleans showed up and started robbing people in teams.

 

[SwampWolf]

I prefer the Colt Detective/Cobra/Agent over the "J" frame because I like the idea of having 20 % more ammo in a revolver only slightly bigger and weighing the same (comparing a Cobra to an Airweight). If you are really expecting trouble and have advance notice of same, few of us would opt for a snubnose, no matter the brand. Regarding the question of "is five rounds enough?" and the answer "If you need more than five, you need more training...", I pose the following points:

(1) If five's more than enough, why not four?
(2) Nobody who's been in a gunfight has ever complained about having too many bullets on board.
(3) If five rounds aren't enough, you really need six!

 

[DougDubya]

Right pocket holds one five-shot. Left pocket holds another five-shot.

Actually, only five in gun is more than enough when you have good tactics, situational awareness, accuracy and vigorously aggressive defense on your side.

If you had a 30 round AK-47, but no will, no training, no intellectual preparation, and insufficient ferocity in the attainment of your own defense, you'd be worse off than someone like Rex Applegate, who with Wiley Clapp all but resurrected the Centennial.

-By ferocity and aggressive defense, I do not mean rage and ruthlessness. I mean a total committment to not dying, and to winning the fight. IE: no retreat, no appeasement, and no surrender. If the five shot runs out of ammunition, and you're in range, use the frame to crush maxillofacial bones until hostilities cease. If you're out of ammunition and have range, hole up behind cover and reload or seek better position.

 

[jt1]

There is a reason you have two hands...

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

1911Tuner said it best, the gun you have with you is the one best for self defense. I don't own any revolvers, but if I did and all my autos were stripped for detail cleaning or something like that, carrying the j-frame to the store wouldn't leave me feeling unarmed.

 

[brentfoto]

It's quite simple. You put the lightest gun in your pocket that has adequate stopping power. .38 special Airweight is a good compromise. And at least one Bianchi speed strip in the other pocket.

If you're a civilian, slim chance to none you'll ever have to fire it in anger.

Most people who have more than one gun are one day going to have all sort of back problems, etc. It's just not worth the extra weight.

442/642 in the front pocket with a Mika pocket holster or Nemesis/Super Fly or Uncle Mike's pocket holster or whatever, with one Bianchi speed strip in the other pocket. http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14760&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

Or consider a Bersa Thunder .380cc. A bit heavier, but 9 shot capability, and similar footprint to the J-framed revolver.
http://www.gunblast.com/Bersa_380CC.htm

 

[gcrookston]

I carried a Sig 230 for years... until recently. I "upgraded" to a J frame. Then a couple weeks ago I found a K frame I quite liked...

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Five rounds will generally afford you the oppurtunity to exit the danger zone or fight your way to additional firepower. Even against 3 bad guys, the vast majority are not going to stick around to see which one of them you are going to shoot at. Bad guys are looking for easily intimidated and overpowered victims. They don't want resistance of any kind.
That being said, I usually carry 2 J-frames.

 

[Haywood]

When I carry my Five shot Revolvers, it's Two at a time. One 357 IWB and a 38 in the pocket. If I carry One gun (very rare) it's my 617 Taurus (7-shot 357). The 617 is a 2" and caries just fine in the waist band. I still carry my Mdl. 37 in my back pocket. On a very rare occasion I have carried one Five shot, But thats when I am in a place I shouldn't be armed anyway. Today it's the 617 IWB, Mdl.37 week side back pocket. I always Carry a Flashlight, Pepper Spray, Knife, Reloads, and a Cell Phone.