S&W??????????

[willie t]

hello,i only own 1 S&W(late fathers firearm)or i would not own it,in my reading of the many posts in this forum i have come to the understanding that if the markings on revolver call for the S&W ctg. it is not only unsafe but very difficult(if not impossible) to chamber and fire the 38 special round,now i have owned the revolver for some 20 odd years and pops had it i for at least that long and all it has ever had was 38 special run thru it,it is still as solid as a smith can be expected to be,as for what model it is i don't know,maybe someone who has knowledge of these things will help me out with the model and advise me on the ammo issues,i will post some pics and the serial # is 2370xx,thanks in advance,,,,BILL

 

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson’s Military & Police .38 revolver, (also known as the .38 1905 Hand Ejector) was normally chambered to use the .38 Special cartridge. But during World War Two (1940 –’45) they made a special version chambered to use the .38 S&W (not Special) cartridge for the British and countries in its Commonwealth or Empire. During the 1950’s these revolvers were replaced with the Browning Hi-Power 9mm pistol, and most of the surplus revolvers ended up on the U.S. used gun market where they were sold for low prices.

To make them more attractive to American buyers, they were often bored out to take the .38 Special round. This could cause a condition where neither cartridge would work as it should, and under the worst of circumstances .38 cases would split when the cartridge was fired. The bored out chamber and oversized bore could also have a negative effect on accuracy. Those revolvers that were not rechambered were fine so long as they were used with .38 S&W ammunition.

In addition, some had their barrels shortened from the standard length of 5 inches. Then a new front sight was installed. However this same alteration was also done on regular .38 Special revolvers.

Those revolvers that were made in .38 S&W will have a serial number stamped on the bottom of the butt. This number should be in the 600,000 to 999,999 range. Thereafter the number should be preceded with the letter “V” and start at 1. The “V” may not be close to the number, but it will be on the butt.

In addition, the right side of the barrel should be marked: .38 S&W ctg. And there should be evidence that a hole was at one time drilled in the bottom of the butt so that a lanyard loop could be mounted.

If you have a revolver that is marked on the barrel, .38 S&W ctg., but .38 Special cartridges can be chambered in the cylinder, you have one of the modified “made for England” guns. If the serial number is below 600,000 and there is no “V” you may have something else.

 

[Dismantler]

Since this was your father's gun you may want to have Smith & Wesson Historical document it for you. If you go to www.smith-wesson.com you will find a link to their historical society. I think it is under FAQ's.

Send them good photos of the gun and the serial # and they will research it and send a pretty nice letter documenting it. Cost is $30.

 

[willie t]

thanks for the help,i looked on bottom of grip both inside and outside,took the grips off,no sigh of a lanyard hole,the serial #on grip and on bottom of barrel under ejector rod both match and are 237067

 

[Old Fuff]

I presume there is no letter on the bottom of the butt...

In that case you have a Smith & Wesson .38 1905 Hand Ejector (Military & Police Model) 3rd Chg. These were made between 1909 and 1915, within a serial number range going from 146,900 to 241,703. Your revolver would probable date from around 1913. It would have been originally chambered in .38 Special, not .38 S&W. Given its age, only shoot standad .38 Special cartridges, not those marked a Plus-P. Also as it doesn't have an independent hammer block, carry the hammer down on an empty chamber. Probably not necessary, but it's best to be careful. Someone in the past cut back a longer barrel and replaced the front sight with one with the one it has now. The stocks are also aftermarket replacements.

Given this gun's history within your family, I suggest that you get it "lettered." To do so you will need a snapshot of the gun, a full description including the serial number on the butt, and a check in the amount of $30.00 made out to Smith & Wesson. In exchange the company's historian, Roy G. Jinks, will research the original records (which are not computerized by the way) and send you a letter containing the details of what he finds.

This comprehensive document will contain an overview of the model’s history, followed by the details of your particular gun. This usually includes the caliber, barrel length, finish, and the exact date it was shipped from the factory, and to what distributor or dealer. If there are any special features they will be listed too. This information is often invaluable to both you and future generations.

Additional information on a historical letter will be found at the Smith & Wesson company website at: www.smith-wesson.com

 

[willie t]

my thanks to you for your time,you have very helpful,,,,,,,,,,bill

 

[Oro]

Something doesn't add up...

That is a British Service Model that has been cut-down, it appears.

Are you sure there is no "V" prefix on the butt? The V won't be part of the S/N, but will appear on the butt.

The barrel is roll marked "38 S&W CTG" and has been cut-down, like Old Fluff said. The one-line address makes it post-1922, (too late for that S/N in the first production run), and the ejector rod makes it post-1930. That appears to be what is called a "38/200 British Service Model" - which was a Military & Police Model chambered for 38 S&W and usually made in a 5" barrel length (usually, but not always).

That S/N just doesn't make sense unless it's got a V on it somewhere - it has all the features of a 30s or 40s gun, not a teens or 20s gun. If the barrel S/N matches the grip S/N, then it must be from the 40s - that type barrel cut wasn't done until after 1930.

Can you take a photo of the grip butt (bottom)? Also, the S/N should be in two other places - on the cylinder face when you swing it out, and under the ejector star you can see when you depress the ejector rod and look under the "Star" that has moved outward.

 

[willie t]

hello KAMERER,took the photo,hope it is clear enough to help,the #'s on back of cylinder,and behind ejector star(had to remove star to be sure) are the same as on barrel and grip

 

[Oro]

Yep, I see the spot where the lanyard hole was filled, along with the 'V" removed - it is the first smudge back from the front, and the lanyard hole was the second in the middle of the butt. See how the S/N is located all the way back against the rear? That was only done on guns with lanyard loops installed so it was behind them. The V was usually only on the grip butt and not elsewhere - it should be right where that first "smudge" is and for some reason they removed it when refinishing it.

I am 100% sure that is a Victory 38, the "38/200 British Service Model." The barrel is going to be slightly larger than a normal 38 (the 38 S&W's were .361, not .357 like the 38 Special). Likely, the cylinders were bored out a little longer when it was converted after the war.

Nothing Old Fluff said is wrong, and I'm sure he'll agree with me when he sees that grip butt photo where the alterations are pretty clear. So the likely history is this - went to the UK in WWII for war service, then afterwards in the 50s got altered to make it more commercially attractive, and sent back to the US as and sold as surplus. Your dad probably bought it in that condition in the 50s or 60s - looks to still have the same refinish as many of the surplus conversions. Those grips, the Ajax pearlites date to the 60s or early 70s - they were pretty popular then. It probably came with typical victory grips, which were not particularly fancy.

 

[willie t]

thank you very much KAMERER and also to OLD FLUFF,and DISMANTLER it is always good to know the history of a thing that has been in the family for so long,and by the way you are right the barrel measures .3615 to.362 at the muzzle.again thanks to all,,,BILL

 

[Oro]

Glad to help, Bill. I love these old "warriors" and admire them, and the free citizens who carried them. I haven't found my "perfect" victory model yet, but I do have a decent condition S&W .455 from WWI I got last year. I've really been boning up on the Victory models since 1911s are so nose-bleed expensive now. My dream gun is to find a nice navy victory model and correct holster. I've found correct holsters already for a WWI 1911 and WWII 1911, just gotta get my guns!