SA Milspec 1911 will not feed hollowpoints

[Eric F]

I just have to post this

With these members of THR comming forth with these hollow point feed problems I feel compelled to point out that there are members here that will claim any 1911 will feed any ammo if the gun is in spec. Well ok yeah what spec? If a 1911 didnt have any problems then reliability packages from gun smiths would have never been invented. The simple truth is that machines get out of wack and quality control will always miss something. I prefer to take my gun to a local gunsmith and get it fixed there and pay the money to get it back in 2 or 3 days instead of weeks or months. Thats the trade off. 1911Tuner has many valid points alot of the time the problem is not the gun its a mag or maybe a spring but not always.

 

[loop]

To all the above -Tuner is right.

Also to all the above, it ain't that hard to make a 1911 work right. It is a very simple machine.

Lot of vitriol on this post, but little substance. Give me your 1911 and it will shoot anything in minutes. It ain't hard. If you want X ring accuracy that will take, um, maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

Finished two 1911 rebuilds today and took them to the range. My 6-year-old was amazed at the fact that the one-inch circle in the center of the targets was gone.

I was amazed that neither gun failed in any way.

I just do 1911s for my own entertainment, but if you have one that doesn't work the answer is to fix it. Compared to a Sturmey-Archer, three-speed bicycle hub they are incredibly simple machines.

On a personal level, I think a couple people ought to apologize to Tuner. He knows his stuff.

 

[1911Tuner]

First...Failure to feed and failure to go to/return to battery are two different malfunctions.

Failure to feed is most often a magazine problem. If I had a dime for every "Jam-o-Matic" that I've cured by using a good magazine, I'd be a happy guy...and a good bit richer. This, even after the pistol has been back to the manufacturer for repair. These are my favorites.

Failure to go to battery is usually an extractor problem. Remove the extractor and hand-feed a few rounds to see if it improves. Sometimes, the extractor needs to be modified a little...sometimes not.

The toughest one is the 3-Point Jam...and that's a gun problem. Most often caused by bad feed ramp and/or bad barrel ramp geometry. Sometimes it's fairly simple to correct...sometimes not.

I'll say it again, just in case somebody missed it.

If the feed and barrel ramp geometry is right, and if the extractor is right...and if proper magazines are used...the gun will feed and go to battery as slick as green grease thru a goose, and most of'em aren't picky about the ammo as long as it's not outright junk. No magic voodoo super-secret tricks or mirror polishing required.

 

[camacho]

Tuner, just a question. Do you subscribe to the break in theory? When I got my GI, I purchased 3 different (McCormick, Willson, and Metalform) mags precisely because I was told that it's a mag problem. Oddly, I had feed problems with all of them at the beginning. Once the gun went through 300+ rounds, they all started feeding without problem.

 

[1911Tuner]

Do you subscribe to the break in theory?

No. "Break-in" is to seat the lugs and knock off the sharp edges...not an attempt to let the gun's problems correct themselves...hopefully. While an overly tight gun can benefit from a break-in period, it means that the gun is essentially out of spec.

Whenever I hear of a gun owner contacting the manufacturer concerning a functional problem, and the response is to shoot it 500 or a thousnd times to let it "break in" I translate that to:
"Oh...Go play with your toy and stop bothering us."

Can you imagine the response had the US Government called Remington Rand or Colt or Ithaca with functional issues and they heard the rep telling them to burn up 500 rounds per pistol to "break them in"? There would have been a convoy of pistol-packed semis lined up at the receiving docks in less than 72 hours.

Note that this doesn't imply that the pistol should be sloppy loose, or that a tight gun can't be reliable. They can be. It's just a bit trickier to make it happen.

Once the gun went through 300+ rounds, they all started feeding without problem.

You're one of the more fortunate ones. Sometimes it does work. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes, even when it does, the issues will reappear.

Loop...No apologies required. I just want the readers to understand that just because it looks like a 1911 and it functions like a 1911...that isn't a guarantee that it was built to spec. So many manufacturers producing the pistol...and so many that make up the rules as they go...it's a solemn wonder that they run as well as they do. There are many aspects of the pistol that can be out of spec, and the gun will still function. There are a few that are critical, and without adhering to those critical specs...the gun will choke like a pukin' buzzard...even on top-quality hardball.

(With apologies to the 101st AIrborne.)

One thing to bear in mind is that it was designed to function. If it's correctly built, it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice in the matter.

 

[Kevin108]

My SA GI wouldn't feed anything reliably. 500 rounds didn't make one bit of difference. A thousand rounds didn't either. Could it have been fixed? Yes. Should I have had to? Absolutely not. I sold it, bought a laptop with the cash and went back to shooting my tactical tupperware. Will I buy another 1911? Someday, but not from Springfield.

 

[camacho]

Thanks Tuner. Just wanted to hear your thoughts on that. It seems like the break in theory is omnipresent, and because it worked for me, I thought of it to be true. However, the points you make about the specs are sound. Thanks again!

 

[kcshooter]

500 rounds won't change a thing. If it doesn't feed right now, it won't then. Something isn't quite right.

That's nonsense! While this might be true for the polymer guns, 1911s need break in, unless they are Willson Combat and few other high end brands.

Nope. It's true. While you should throw downrange however many rounds it takes to make you comfortable with carrying that particular gun, if something isn't working, fighting thru 500 rounds isn't going to fix it.

I feel compelled to point out that there are members here that will claim any 1911 will feed any ammo if the gun is in spec. Well ok yeah what spec?

It's not a claim, it's a true statement. The specs are the Colt 1911 gov't contract blueprints. They are readily available. All the specs are also in the Kuhnhasen book, a standard for the 1911.

If a 1911 didnt have any problems then reliability packages from gun smiths would have never been invented.

If they were all in spec there wouldn't be reliability packages. If you've ever spec'ed out a few 1911's you'll be suprised by how many subtle differences there are to the spec figures. While some differences are non-vital, it takes a lot less than you'd think to screw up a critical area. Spec also refers to internal tolerances of all parts. Don't underestimate this.

The simple truth is that machines get out of wack and quality control will always miss something.

OK, if quality control misses something, it was out of spec, yes?

My SA GI wouldn't feed anything reliably. 500 rounds didn't make one bit of difference. A thousand rounds didn't either. Could it have been fixed? Yes. Should I have had to? Absolutely not. I sold it, bought a laptop with the cash and went back to shooting my tactical tupperware. Will I buy another 1911? Someday, but not from Springfield.

Not sure why you just didn't call Springfield up and have them pay to have it returned to them and then back to you funtioning properly. (The do have one of the best customer service reputations in the industry.) Or that you didn't make an attempt to fix it or have it fixed while trying to choke 1000 rounds thru it if it didn't run right.


As well-stated above, it works when it is built correctly because it is just a machine.

 

[1911jock]

Kcshooter

Quote:
I feel compelled to point out that there are members here that will claim any 1911 will feed any ammo if the gun is in spec. Well ok yeah what spec?

It's not a claim, it's a true statement.

But what if the ammo is out of spec? I have a particular 1911 that I seat the bullets way out to make major powerfactor with 9mm. In this case my ammo will not work with other 9mm guns 1911 or not. Just a thought.

Quote:
If a 1911 didnt have any problems then reliability packages from gun smiths would have never been invented.

If they were all in spec there wouldn't be reliability packagesQuote:
The simple truth is that machines get out of wack and quality control will always miss something.

OK, if quality control misses something, it was out of spec, yes?

I think you guys are saying the same thing, arn't you?

1911Tuner and many others of varrious ability and popularity have stated over and over break in is not going to make a gun feed any better. I beleive this may be printed in the Kuhnhasen book aswell, but no matter I have never seen anything to prove otherwise in all my years of 1911's. I take the break in thing as hopeing things will fix themselves. Burrs and rough edges do not just go away, they need to be delt with properly and billy bob and his rotery tool just dont "cut" it for me. Factories are great for fixing these defects but also some one mentioned a time factor. If you cant live with the turn around time I am sure a 1911 mechanic is not too far away for most.

 

[1911Tuner]

But what if the ammo is out of spec?

During the original tests, after firing 6,000 consecutive rounds without a single failure...the final phase was to deform several rounds in various ways, including crushing the cases and bullets with pliers, and seating bullets a 10th inch or so deeper in the case than spec. The test guns fed and functioned with all those rounds...without issue.

 

[1911Tuner]

My SA GI wouldn't feed anything reliably. 500 rounds didn't make one bit of difference. A thousand rounds didn't either. Could it have been fixed? Yes. Should I have had to? Absolutely not. I sold it,

Shame. You might've ditched a decent pistol over a magazine problem. Seen it happen too many times. I've "fixed" too many pistols by doing nothing more than handing the owner a couple dozen of my magazines and tellin' him to go shoot.

 

[mtngunr]

That's nonsense! While this might be true for the polymer guns, 1911s need break in, unless they are Willson Combat and few other high end brands. Go to the 1911 forums and read about this. The breaking in for the 1911 is the rule not the exception.

No sir....if properly built, it should run right out of the box, plastic, steel, 1911, SIG, whatever...a properly built 1911 DOES run right out of the box...Colts, for instance....if it doesn't, send it back or fix it yourself, but it's got issues.

 

[mtngunr]

If a 1911 didnt have any problems then reliability packages from gun smiths would have never been invented.

I hate to tell you this, but 90% of all gunsmithing work has one aim in mind....to bring home a good paycheck for a smith...and it's written up so much in magazines to sell magazines and increase advertising rates/revenues....buzzwords like "upgrade", "reliablity package" only show lack of subject knowledge by those spouting them...when properly executed, the 1911 design needs no "upgrades" or "reliability packages", as successful military service in muddy trenches, deserts, jungles, and arctic conditions showed....the upgrades are a modern thing driven by games for the most parts, upgrades such as extended mag releases, slide-stops, bastard file checkering, ramped barrels, etc.....if they help in games, well, that's great....but if your mag inadvertantly punches out or your ambi safety comes apart while you're trying to save your life, you might rethink that upgrade part.

 

[kcshooter]

[

But what if the ammo is out of spec? I have a particular 1911 that I seat the bullets way out to make major powerfactor with 9mm. In this case my ammo will not work with other 9mm guns 1911 or not. Just a thought.

So what you're saying here is although you loaded some funky rounds, they still fed fine in the 1911 but not other guns? Goes to show how well a properly tuned 1911 can function, even in a non-standard caliber.

I think you guys are saying the same thing, arn't you?

Yes, we are but I wanted to make the point that it's not the platform's fault when this happens, it's the builder's. It's an issue of the specifications of that particular gun, not these guns as a whole.



As stated, the most often causes of these issues are simple, either weak mags, or improperly tensioned extractors. While there are other problems that come in play from time to time, such as feed ramp angles and the most important step between ramp and barrel (which you shouldn't play with yourself), these are what I've seen the most of, probably 75% (or more) of the issues I've come across stem from these. Both of these can be fixed in almost no time by almost anyone. Doesn't make the gun unreliable. Doesn't make the platform flawed.

Bubby with his rotary tool has screwed up a lot of good guns. "Extended-", "Tactical-", "Combat-" drop-in parts from a plethora of parts sources have also done their share to cause unreliable 1911's, too. Everyone's need to "upgrade" a perfectly good weapon has caused so many different people to cash in on the market with sub-par parts it's obscene.

Some mfgrs hold a higher regard for the original specs than others. These are often the most reliable ones. That's why when you buy a gun, you are also buying the backing of the maker with it. If it doesn't have a strong history of taking care of issues efficiently, I think very hard about buying that particular brand.

 

[19112XS]

It always a good idea to take down a new (or new to you) pistol to examine, clean, de-burr, lube and familiarize yourself with it. More obvious problems will likely present themselves during this examination.

Most of the feed issues I’ve experienced with 1911s have been cured by using properly functioning magazines. Early on, after recognizing magazine related problems I purchased premium name brand (expensive) magazines from a coupla three different manufacturers and experienced the same failures. After I started using 7 round magazines with flat, dimpled followers and Wolff “+P” magazine springs (at “popular prices”) the feed issues (JHP, SWC, everything) have disappeared. And since all those popular, name brand (expensive) magazine tubes now have flat, dimpled followers and Wolff “+P” magazine springs in them, they are now 100% reliable too. This has been my personal experience.

I have never felt the need to reconfigure the feed lips on a magazine. I have seen certain pistols that preferred one type of lip over another but these are definitely in the minority.

Do NOT Dremel anything! It is extremely easy to make irreversible mistakes very fast. I’ve seen a “throated” barrel on an otherwise beautiful ‘60s redo of a USGI Surplus Colt that made consistent accuracy impossible. I’ve seen a slightly (almost unnoticeable) rolled top on a frame feed ramp that caused FTFeeds consistently until the problem was found and (quite strenuously) resolved. Tuner still cusses every time he sees that pistol. The moral of the story is that a misapplied Dremel can turn your pistol into a paperweight in less than 5 seconds.

I was at Tuner’s a while back and asked to see if his old USGI pistols would feed modern day hollow points. We looked for ammo, but realized we had shot all it all earlier. We did find empty .45 ACP brass and he loaded 3 of these empties into a magazine and hand cycled all three of the empty cases thru the old gun. I saw this in person, did not read about it on the Internet.

 

[1911Tuner]

We looked for ammo, but realized we had shot all it all earlier.

Psssst!

Ya forgot about the SWC.

 

[1911Tuner]

A little background is probably in order here.

2XS first approached me about 5 years ago with some questions. He had many 1911 pistols...Colts and Kimbers...Norincos and Springfields. He also had many problems...mostly related to misfeeds and failures to go to battery. He eventually made the trip from Tennessee, and we became fast friends. He now makes the trip 3-4 times a year to come shoot and visit, and partake of the turbocoffee.

He spoke:

"John, I really like the 1911s, but I just don't seem to be able to find one that I can trust to work like it's supposed to."

Just recently, he thanked me for the "Gift of Reliability" because all his pistols run now, regardless of the ammunition or bullet profile. Cheap, bargain hardball ammo or high-end +P Hollowpoints. Remanufactured or new. Jacketed or lead. The guns just run.

If memory serves me, I actually had to do real work on two of them...if we discount the two that I rebarrelled...which didn't have reliability issues any more...so technically, those don't count.

There's also been the occasional extractor adjustment...not because of a problem...but just because I'm anal retentive, and I caught the odd one that didn't suit me...so I tweaked because that's what I do.

There were a few that I installed and fitted the EGW firing pin stops in...but not because of functional problems.

All the rest of his delinquent pistols...and there were more than a few...were made as reliable as an anvil...with a change in magazines. That's it. His brace of Jam-O-Matics...stopped jamming by me doing no more than handing him a few good magazines.

For feed and/or return to battery issues...suspect the magazine first! The next most likely cause is the extractor. You'll find the cure in one of those two things about 98% of the time. Forget polishing or waxing or altering the gun in any way until you've positively eliminated those two.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

I LOADED SOME 185 gr. JHP last night, have not shot them but did run them through the gun and as long as i did this fast they all Fed , rack the slid a little slow and one would hang up.
this was in my
SF1911-A1 AND THE PT1911

range day will tell the tell

 

[1911Tuner]

have not shot them but did run them through the gun and as long as i did this fast they all Fed

That's because the gun was designed to feed at full speed...not slow. When you try to feed it slow, you cause the slide to hesitate, whether you realize it or not.

A better hand-test is to remove the recoil spring plug...or the whole recoil system is even better...and push the slide to battery without hesitating.
My litmus test is to feed it by pushing on the rear of the slide with one finger.