Sad day, Knight Rifles may be history...

[USMC - Retired]

All the fighting amongst ourselves only serves to help those that would ban hunting completly. A muzzle loader is a muzzle loader is a muzzle loader. I makes no difference if it is a modern in-line using tipple 7 pellets and .209 shotshell primers or a matchlock using FF black powder hand made by the shooter wearing buckskins and a coon hat. They all load from the front and have a slower rate of fire than cartrige guns. I mean where does it stop? Sone say "Hey! No in-lines, not primative enough" then others say, "Better not use that sidelock cap gun, your not a real muzzle loader unless you have a Frizzen", "Oh no, no flintlocks, you gotta have a matchlock". "Whats with all these mechanical firing systems? A touchhole and a burning punk is the only true way to do it!" Gimme a break guys, "We have to stand together or we shall all surely hang seperately"

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Semper Fi Brother,

The only problem we have here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland, is the high proliferation of suburban sprawl, near to public and private hunting lands. Most of the central counties of the state prohibit high powder rifles for hunting, but allow shotguns and muzzleloaders. Now Knight and their defacto lobbyist, Toby Bridges, advocate very high muzzle velocities. The loads they like to tout are equivalent to .45-120 cartridges, and long range shots. Now I as an avid flinter, I have no problem with the inlines, and I have one myself for curiosity and hunter safety instruction sake, BUT...,

What worries me is when a hunter with one of these maxed-out in-line rifles goes for that long shot, misses, and that bullet comes down out of the hunting zone and into the neighborhood. Sure, my round ball or my 12 ga slug could do the same, but it's less likely, and hasn't happened in 30 years. Perhaps I am over-worried, but if it does happen, the knee jerk reaction will be to eliminate all rifles, and we'll be limited to rifled slugs in the old smooth barrels.

LD

 

[USMC - Retired]

Thats where we need to do our part to educate our fellow hunters on reposponsible use of those rifles. Sure a hunter could take a bad shot with an inline but like you said, he could do the same with a sidelock or a shotgun and still send a round into a populated area. My .30-06 is accurate out to 500 yards, but you won't find me taking a hunting shot past 300. Just not the ethical thing to do, too many factors that could cause a bad shot. Banning a particular type of firearm because of what someone might do is just the kind of thing that the anti's thrive on. If I drove my truck through a crowd I could kill a bunch of people, if I drove my wifes honda through the same crowd I would most likely kill less... Should we outlaw the use of F150's?

 

[mohican]

I can remember back in the early 80's when a guy carrying a 54 TC hawken caplock during shotgun season was thought to be "taking advantage of a huge accuracy difference" between his Hawken and everyone else shooting pumpkin balls.......

the "traditionalist" are typically almost as bitter towards inline users as the stick and string crowd is to crossbow users.

or the disdain that "knife purist" hold Lynn Thompson in

Irrational, imo

pardon the ignorance, *** is Toby Bridges?

I had someone show up to hunt with me at my farm once, and he complained about my knight - after which he received, do to rudeness to the host an un-invite

 

[Lambo119]

OK, Where's my soap box?

USMC Retired is on the mark! I am sick and tired of hearing this is not traditional enough, pure enough or to modern bla bla bla. :banghead: It is all about choice people and if we continue to bicker amongst ourselves our choices will ultimately be limited by others. I have seen it happen with hound hunting and baiting bears across the nation. The anti-hunters go in and get hunter groups to fight amongst themselves to the point where they have no lobbying power and abracadabra no more season. I see this debate exactly the same way. So what if I like traditional or inline out of respect for others right to choose I will not voice my opinion negatively for fear of fueling the anti movement. For the record I own and enjoy both. I think we all need to be a little more tolerant of our “brothers in arms” passions and remember we are all, like it or not, on the same team.

 

[gezzer]

When it's loaded from the muzzle it is a muzzleloader. Anyone believing that they are a long range rifle also believes in the tooth fairy! At best they equal the old 45/70 sure it's accurate at long range only if you know the ballistics of it's ARK>

Knight's problem to me was #1 price, and just how many freaking different actions can be made on an inline? Every new gun is just a warmed over in-line. Their wood stocks had so-so lines and finish, their composites are no different than any other plastic.

The only thing going for them was the Green Mountain barrels used by them. Knight merged with Green Mountain a few years ago and then both were sold to EBSCO and again put to different divisions. Green Mountain being the big money maker as they supply rifled barrels to most makers in the US including the big ones.

 

[1911 guy]

I'm a traditionalist, but...

Muzzleloading performance is still muzzleloading performance. An inline with a sabot gets no more range than a sidelock with a sabot. Personally, I hunt with a .50 caliber percussion using a round ball. My favorite squirrel rifle is a .36 cal flintlock, also using a round ball. However, BP rifles that are percieved as being easier to use and clean are responsible for introducing a lot of people to shooting. I do think that muzzleloading season should be restricted to the Holy Black or one of it's illegitimate children such as 777 or pyrodex. Smokeless should be out for ML season, rifle style should be irrelevant.

 

[bakert]

Got to agree with 1911 guy. I personally use traditional caplocks but in some ways the inlines are a bit more idiot proof for a lot of so-so hunters and shooters. Also the idea of using smokless powder in a muzzle loader of any kind give me the willies. Problem is, far too many idiots will figure, "hell, if it'll work in one gun, it oughta git 'er done in another". Black powder or one of the substitutes, Pyrodex etc. for me.

 

[KarbineKrazy]

Want to get a Knight 209 MAgnum

sorry, didn't mean to post here, but I will be getting a knight, I'm new to muzzle loading. I gotta start somewhere.

 

[bub8889]

I hunt with both, inline in the early season and flintlock in the late season so I don't care what you hunt with. My gripe is with the Idiots that don't know a thing about muzzleloader hunting that buy the inline starter packs shoot them once and head out hunting. I find that unethecial in bot being adequate with your weapon to make a clean kill, you only get 1 shot. Then once they shoot all the rounds that came with the starter kit they don't know what bulets/balls/sabots to buy for the gun. And my farorite is the guy pouring powder down the barrel with a lit cigar in the hand holding the barrel , at least the hand ws holding the barrel until the powder ignited.

 

[stevelyn]

I have long said that the arguement between inline vs. side hammer/traditional was a meaningless and without merit.

It is the same as the compound vs traditional vs crossbow red herring in the bowhunting community. A few "purists" looking down their noses folks wanting to try getting into bowhunting using another discipline with slightly different equipment.

It's nothing but division within and accomplishes nothing but weakening ourselves for the antis.

It's a tactic of goring everyone else's ox in hopes your's will be left alone by saying "See how we've handicapped ourselves more than those other guys".

 

[Azrael256]

I'm a bit of a traditionalist myself. The men who taught me to shoot BP guns and bows all have a disdain for anything "compound" or "inline" of any description. They're also historical reenactors, so there you go.

But seriously, I can't plant roses because the blasted deer will eat them, I can't drive on a FM road at night without having to dodge one, and more hunting licenses go begging every year.

You can argue that people with generally poor gun handling skills are taking up inlines and causing dangerous situations and I'll listen, but that's a safety issue. You could even come up with a bunch of charts and graphs to prove that nobody with an IQ over 60 would even contemplate using a percussion cap of any kind. Fine. This outright hatred of our brethren who shoot different guns is meaningless. There's plenty to go around, and all this does is create a divisiveness that we surely don't need. When the supply starts to run dry, so will the tags. Until that happens, take your meat with whatever gun you like, and don't worry about what the next guy is using unless he does something unsafe. Blaming the gun makes no sense, and we all know what kind of people do that.

 

[BlkHawk73]

When a company makes a good, popular product,the imatators take over and all they have to offer is a cheaper porduct.

What's worse is the the consumers are too cheap to spend $ on quality now a days too. There's a small % that will but overall most will settle for mediocre or lowball stuff. That's exactly why Walmart hs become what it has. too bad about another quality ML company going away. A&H was one of the classiest.

 

[Aries-]

the problem i have with inlines and other modern muzzle loaders. is that places that ban high powered rifles do so because of the sound and the velocity and the effective distance of those rifles. modern inlines are getting close to those speeds and distances. i have heard people say that with 150 grains of 777 they can get speeds with a sabbor of upwards of 2600fps. i think my dads old hawken is lucky to hit 1800fps.

in my area if they start banning muzzle loaders because of people shooting new inlines im going to be pissed off lol. i can see it happening to. as they have banned all shooting on sundays for the yuppies moving into the area because "its the country. if i want to hear shooting il stay in the city" crap. the people doing the hunting courses in my area figgure in the next 5-10 years here they will have everything but bow hunting banned which will be unfortunet since i live on 30 acers of nice forest.

:edit:
i plan on useing .209 primers and likely 777 in a traditional caplock (custom built by a friend of my dads http://www.clarkindustries.on.ca/gunw.html hope thats ok if not send me a message il change it) but for the reason of reliability, and getting the same shot each time. where i go hunting it is generaly foggy all the time cold and damp, this year i went it was nearly raining every day i went out. useing new magnum primers id go out for an hour come back to camp and the cap would snap, but the powder wouldent go off.. dud cap from the wet.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Admittedly, I haven't heard much about A&H and Knight going under at work. We talk about it a little, and every once in a while a customer will mention it, but it isn't talked about much.

I actually had a customer a while back who said the Knight rifle he bought was the worst BP rifle he ever bought. Knight allowed him to change models (after a couple of trips back to the factory) and the guy said he sold the substitute and bought a Thompson/Center.

As for ballistics; drive those stubby little pistol bullets as hard as you want; they're still stubby little bullets with poor BCs. Somewhere around 150-200 yards they really start to lose their punch, IMO.

And a muzzleloader IS a muzzleloader. Ask my coworker how long it took him to reload his T/C Encore with the buck in his sights. He'll say it was long enough he could have shot the deer 2-3 times with a single-shot, and likely more with a bolt or pump.

Edited: My go-to hunting rifle is currently a T/C Encore as well. 209x50, even though it's now modern firearms in New Hampshire. My biggest concern? Deciding whether or not to scope it to take advantage of the last few minutes of daylight in the woods.

 

[____hoot____]

OK here is my 2 cents. Let a little buck come in way to close to my brushpile blind in a thicket last week and shot him at last light just behind the head at 34 feet as he was about to hit my scent trail, while waiting for a bigger one to come out of the cattails behind him. The hand built custom lightweight seven pound 98 military action Husqvarna pencil barreled 06 with a Scopechief 6X is built and tuned for beanfield work as are the 165 grain boattail sierra loads, but they worked just fine at this range. My only regret was, that here was yet another one I would have liked to try a spear on and that is against the friggin LAW here in Michigan !!!!!

 

[1911 guy]

150 grains of powder.

I see guys do this all the time at the range. Every shot, the grass in front of them is smoking. The powder isn't even burning in the barrel. A muzzleloader is still a muzzleloader, no matter what the package looks like. Read Sam Fadala's work on black powder, he goes into this in great detail. There comes a point at which adding more powder will raise pressure, but yield no more velocity. That's exactly what happens when you put 150 grains of BP or any BP substitute in a rifle smaller than about 75 caliber.

 

[ldasr]

I've read it all !!!

Seems to me you all should worry more about the anti gunners and less about the crap on BP guns. One more thing, I hunt to eat and if I can get it dun better with an inline so be it.

 

[Aries-]

depends on the rifle at times. my dad shoots 140grains of ffg in his .54 patch and ball flint lock. its impressive, the shockwave from the end of the barrel is visible as the leaves infront get swept away. on my hunting trip with him this year some frinds of his were laughing when it went off because of the shockwave. all the powder was burnt to which i thought was amazing.

but onto the subject of muzzle loaders. some of the newer ones i wouldent call a muzzle loader because they arent loaded in the muzzle. you load them like a artilery opening the breach with a special kep and putting the sabot shot in first then the blocks of pyrodex in after and then locking up the breech after. that i would call a "black powder rifle" if it could even shoot black powder in it without some problems with the breach.

as for worrying about the anti gunners this is true. all guns look the same to them. which isnt that great. im all for keeping the line between muzzle loaders and smokeless powder rifles as plain as can be seen and not fuzzy like its getting.

 

[Ranger 40]

This is a Hot topic for sure. Here in Wyoming we do not have a M/L season. We have a Deer, Elk, Moose. Sheep, Goat,Etc. season. You can hunt with any legal firearm .240 and up for CF, .40 and up for M/Ls or you an use a handgun.
In recent years I have used the Sharps or a new favorite a .54 Flinter custom M/L.
So, I guess I compete with every type of firearm known during a season. I have never had a problem hunting with prmitive weapons, when others used modern firearms. The problems comes with special seasons. The folks who shoot primitives have always had a set aside season. Now they feel this is being invaded by modern firearms. This is true no doubt. The folks who shoot the inlines feel a M/L is just a M/L . With this kind of a conflict there is no middle ground.
I think if there were never set aside seasons, there would not be these problems today. Anytime the laws try to regulate some ones activities, some one will find away around it. This always ends up with Government {1} citizens{0}.

 

[Plink]

I feel that there is middle ground, and that's not to descriminate by rifle aesthetics but by performance. Performance is less of a feature of the gun than of the "ammo". I think Pyrodex or black powder, and round ball or lead conical should be fine for muzzleloader season. They're both traditional projectiles anyway. Most inlines shoot conicals just fine. In fact they're amazingly accurate from most of them.

This lets anyone use any muzzleloader they want during muzzleloading season, but it does tend to restrict us all to traditional ballistic limits, which was the reason for special seasons in the first place. If someone wants to shoot long distances, then the pressure is on them to become a real marksman, just like in the old days, rather than relying on high tech gimmicks to buy them a little flatter trajectory.

I see inline guns such as the Savage as particularly versatile. Smokeless powder and high performance sabot during rifle season, Pyrodex and conical during muzzleloading season, etc. The ability to load up, or load down, depending on the distances involved and the game being hunted. It lets the shooter become very familiar with a single rifle too. Remember the saying "beware the man who only owns one gun and shoots it well" or something like that.