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Safe, Legal way to inform an aggressor you are carrying

Discussion in 'Legal' started by undeRGRound, Feb 16, 2013.

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  1. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    I had a potential "situation" one morning, handled it well,
    But I wondered how to safely, legally and TACTFULLY in
    a non-escalating manner to inform someone you might
    be carrying, so they could not later claim they were threatened
    or that you "brandished" a weapon. I live in Indiana, BTW.
     
  2. Solo

    Solo Member

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    You do not want legal advice from an internet forum.
     
  3. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    None. It is an escalation, it is a threat. Do not mention or draw until you feel threatened and are ready to fire. The only warning they get is the flash of steel before you fire.

    (tactical advice, not legal, but IMO, they are the same here)
     
  4. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    Just kind of sweep your hand along the bottom of your cover garment (not too fast) and make sure it's straight and not in the way. The bad guy should be watching your hands and he'll pick up on it.

    That's my theory anyway :) I've never had to test it.
     
  5. Utryme

    Utryme Member

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    He's right. This ain't the place for legal eagles. I'm from Indiana also. Statute is easy to look at. The big deal in Indiana is "pointing a loaded firearm". A friend of mine got nailed for two reasons
    1- he had alcohol on his breath, but only 1 beer
    2- he was 3' off his property
    3- he pointed it and admitted it was loaded

    If you ask me, he was n the right as he was threatened y an angry mob of young adults. He had the misfortune of getting interviewed by the worlds dumbest cop here in Laporte.
     
  6. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    Thx Everyone!

    Of course I will check local/state etc. laws, and I was using the term "legal" in
    the general sense. As in not saying "I'm gonna stick this 44mag up your ___"
    or something stupid.

    @ Utryme: Yes, looks like he made 3 mistakes. That close to home one should
    get on their own property, or not leave it. Sounds like a good example!
     
  7. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I subscribe to the Clint Smith advice of yelling "Stop!!" as you draw. The distinction is, you are still intending to act as you do it, it's not a warning so much as a reasonable butt-cover. You aren't waiting to see if deadly force is necessary, that line has already been crossed. It may well still de-escalate (if fact it almost always will,) but that is not the intent behind the action.
     
  8. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    Ask for legal advice from a Lawyer, not on the internet. Therefore any following advice is just my opinion, not any sort of legal advice.

    Reconsider your mindset.

    A firearm is not a shield and should not be thought of as a deterrent (though it sometimes acts as one, depending on that effect will get you into some serious trouble). It is unwise IN THE EXTREME to use a firearm, or even the hint of one, to "warn off" a potential aggressor and the introduction of a firearm into ANY confrontational situation is ALWAYS an escalation.

    Valid use of a firearm in a self-defense situation is pretty much restricted to determining the answer to the question "do I currently have a reasonable fear for my life?" which is often determined by an analysis of the "MMO" yardstick.
    Means - Does this person have the means to harm me?
    Motive - Does this person appear to have a motive?
    Opportunity - Can this person actually get to me to carry out their threat?

    If the answers are yes, then you are past the "warning" stage and it is probably time to defend yourself. If any of the answers are "no" then introducing (or hinting about ) a firearm is generally a bad idea.
     
  9. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    DON'T. The gun is not a negotiating tool. In addition to the 'tactical disadvantage' of giving advance notice of what they should watch for and increase the likelihood of a gun grab attempt, any mention of it will likely be seen as a threat and challenge ... it will just 'one-up' they other guy's macho man monkey dance. It will be an escalation, and witnesses will recall that you "threatened" that you had a gun.

    The gun stays hidden until all efforts to deescalate and/ or disengage have failed, and potentially (likely) lethal violence is the ONLY way to extricate yourself.
     
  10. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Don't say anything. Use verbal skills to defuse the situation if possible. If the perpetrator attempts to use deadly force against you then you should use yours. A gun should not be displayed until you fear for your life.
     
  11. Alaska444

    Alaska444 member

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    I have been taught that unless it is lawful to shoot in self defense, it is unlawful to brandish a weapon. Tactically, alerting the other person you are armed gives them more of an advantage than tactical surprise gives you.

    There are other methods of deescalating a situation that are perfectly legal and better to use. If you want folks to know you are armed then carry openly.

    Otherwise, the situation would have to entail opportunity, ability, jeopardy and preclusion in some states as well.

    By the way, police officers are held to similar standards, at least in some states where I have heard that if they even place their hand on their weapon and the situation was not such that they could lawfully draw and use the weapon, they can be reprimanded.
     
  12. AnthonySmithXR

    AnthonySmithXR Member

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    +1 to the three above. Don't do it. Don't fire warning shots either. If the gun is out, the decision has been made to shoot to live. If that's not the situation, don't even hint.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Why would you
    when you need to draw your gun, you need to draw your gun, before that you should be working on ADEE (avoidance, disengage, escape evade)

    YOU DON'T GIVE HIM THE UPPER HAND BY WARNING
    and it is an escalation, if you are in a monkey dance, you just step in it, as his next challenge will be to mock you and tell you to draw....

    (BTW, Monkey Dance is a specific meaning, google it and learn)
     
  14. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    A violent aggressor doesn't DESERVE any "warning".

    [In Ohio] outside of your home, you ATTEMPT to walk away. If he thwarts that attempt and unlawfully uses deadly force against you, sucks to be him.

    [In Ohio] in your vehicle or home, it immediately and always sucks to be him. No duty to warn, retreat or anything else.

    In civilized places, putting other people in immediate and credible fear of unlawful use of deadly force is dangerous. You should already know that. If you don't, or choose to disregard that, that's YOUR fault, NOT your victim's.

    My goal is not to avoid shooting somebody.

    My goal is to avoid having unlawful deadly force used on me.

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. One of those "prizes" is potentially a bullet in the head.
     
  15. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    If you think that'll work for you, go for it.

    Personally, I don't want to engage with most NON-criminals. I sure haven't the SLIGHTEST desire to bandy words about with some knuckle dragging, atavistic thug. There's ABSOLUTELY no way I'm going to bow and scrape before one, other than as a diversion to allow me to employ deadly force in my own defense.

    I have NOTHING to say to people like that. If they've got just two braincells to rub together, they'll let me walk away. If not, failures of the victim selection process can have dire and permanent consequences.
     
  16. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    What kind of "potential aggressor" are we talking about? A shady looking character who's watching you a little too intently from a distance? Or something more threatening?
     
  17. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Open carry.
     
  18. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    All good stuff!

    ADEE is the best single piece from above, (IMO) thanx Shadow 7D!

    I still have to take the courses and apply for the CCW, but I have the
    weapons and will take The High Road.


    I was referring to a potential road rage situation, where someone for example maybe thought I honked at them when it was someone else. Dude must have been having a really bad day... He got back in his car and slammed the door really hard after I told him it was meant for someone else. Go Figure? I did not act scared or mad, just rolled my window down so I could hear what he said. I thought he was having car trouble until he yelled at me! lol
     
  19. radar1972

    radar1972 Member

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  20. KTXdm9

    KTXdm9 Member

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    Good read radar, thanks.
     
  21. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    thanks EVERYONE!

    Lots to learn! I did not want to go out there armed with deadly force
    and not having a definite plan of action. This is the place to find out, IMO
     
  22. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    We'd rather you learn it here from us than hear goodness knows what on the street from your "friends". ;)
     
  23. undeRGRound

    undeRGRound Member

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    Thx Scott!

    Besides, I check out the info I gather online, but I do appreciate the
    warnings from some to not trust everything. Some folks do not check!
     
  24. kentucky_Dave

    kentucky_Dave Member

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    I think the best plan is avoid / evade. No matter what. Misdirection, distraction, etc...it does not really matter, the Use of a mechanical advantage is a last resort only when all else has failed and it is truly on the line, regardless of what the legal definitions may be. If you have reasonably attempted to avoid a situation, tried to get away and are TRULY confronted with an unavoidable and credible threat on your life, then and only then should consideration be given to using your firearm. but then again, I can only speak for myself ...I am not a lawyer.
     
  25. easyg

    easyg Member

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    If someone was trying to kick your door down in the middle if the night, what would you say?
    You would probably say something like "I have a gun, and if you come through this door I will shoot you."
    A street encounter is really no different.
    Say something like "I am armed and if you try to harm me I will shoot you."
    Contrary to what some folks think, this is not illegal, nor is it an escalation of any potential confrontation.


    I don't know where you heard this but is is simply not true.
     
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