Safety Features of C&B revolvers

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ottsm

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I have several ROA's and when I'm bench rest shooting I normally load all the rounds. I've watched several for Mike Beliveau's videos where he always gets criticized if he attempts to use the center notch and load all 6 rounds so he still loads 5 rounds. I could perhaps understand the worry with the safety pins that stick out on the Colt, I have a signature series but don't shoot it enough to comment about it. I have an original Remington that has a main spring that I can't imagine that it could ever get pulled back by accident. The Starr revolver also seems like a reasonable system.

So I guess my question is, what are all the scenarios that have happened over the years where this safety feature didn't work? I'm strictly talking about C&B, primarily ROA's, Colt's, Remington's and Starr's although any others might also be interesting to discuss.
 
I have a ROA and load all 6 and set the hammer in the safety notch. My holster is deep so that the whole pistol is nestled inside. It's nearly impossible to get to the hammer and wrap around it enough to be able to pull it back. I feel comfortable with it like this.
 
With my 1860s I load all 6, drop the hammer on a pin and carry in a flap holster. If I am just target shooting I sure want to get the most shots for the effort, not like you don't have to clean the empty chamber.
When it comes to safety I worry more about the "other guy". that is why most of my shooting is at a private range.
Do only load 5 in cartridge SAA.
 
It's probably been drummed into Mike's head by his editors and at the clubs when shooting cartridge guns to only, as the saying goes, "load 5 for safety". Cap and Ball revolvers are plenty safe with all six loaded (providing the Italians even included the safety devices) 99% of the time. I don't ride horseback or move through heavy brush with an open top holster where most of those 1% scenarios reside.
 
I expect it is because SASS rules require that revolvers be loaded with five rounds and the hammer be on an empty chamber. This is true regardless of whether the the particular revolver is safe fully loaded (like my Ruger New Vaqueros).
 
I've looked into this a bit. And, I haven't been able to find literature that states the original BP revolver users loaded only 5. The Colt pattern revolvers were "designed" to load six and place the hammer between the cylinders.

The load five came out sometime around the middle of the last century, and then primarily for metallic cartridge revolvers. Heck, I've seen articles stating you shouldn't load six (or five if that's what it holds) in double action revolvers with the firing pin attached to the hammer.

It's all about trying to make things idiot proof. The problem with that is than once you make something idiot proof, they improve the idiot.
 
Yup. It's a cartridge thing...and I'd dearly love to have a close look at a SAA in .45LC. I'd bet the firing pin will fit very nicely between two cartridge rims.

The old-timers weren't stupid.
 
I believe the 5 in the wheel is a safety product of the cartridge revolver.

Read Elmer Keith's accounts of loading the SAA. He recommends load one, skip one and load four, full cock and lower the hammer.

Using the "safety notch" on the Colt revolver is not recommended as it is very weak. Dropping the hammer between the rims of the cartridges was not a good idea either. Look at the rims on some of the older cartridges, tapered toward the edge, just the ticket to let the hammer ride to the primer.
 
I'd dearly love to have a close look at a SAA in .45LC. I'd bet the firing pin will fit very nicely between two cartridge rims.

Howdy

I just checked. It will not. The rims of 45 Colt cartridges in a Colt are so close they almost touch each other. The firing pin will not fit between the rims, it rides along one and then skips over to the next one. With 45 Colt, there is not enough space between rims for the firing pin to drop between rims in a revolver with a cylinder the size of a SAA. This is because the firing pin will be riding at the center of the chambers, where the rims are closest together. I will take a photo later to demonstrate this. If you tried it, the cylinder would not be positively indexed between chambers. It would probably be a different story with a SAA chambered for 38 Special or 357 Mag, but there is not enough room between rims for the firing pin with a 45.

Yes, CAS rules dictate that revolvers only are loaded with 5 rounds and the hammer must be down on an empty chamber. Even if you are shooting a Ruger with a transfer bar you must observe that rule, so that you do not have a competitive advantage over a shooter with a SAA or clone.

In Mike's case, and my own too, I am so used to only loading 5 in a SAA that I do not want to break the habit by loading 6, even if I am at the range and I am going to be perfectly safe and not drop the gun. It just makes more sense, from a muscle memory standpoint, to always do it one way.

Load one, skip one, load four more, cock the hammer and lower it and it will be on an empty chamber. I have been doing it that way for many years and will continue to do so. Yes, the so called 'safety notch' on a SAA is extremely weak, if you drop the gun onto the hammer with a live round under the hammer, there is an excellent chance it will break off either the safety notch or the sear, and the revolver will discharge. No, the old timers were not stupid, but they were no smarter than anybody today. They were familiar with these guns and new how dangerous it could be to load up all six. You did not necessarily have to drop the gun, a stirrup falling onto the hammer was a good way to shoot yourself in the leg.

Regarding only loading five in a S&W with the firing pin in the hammer, that is a completely different story. Since 1899, S&W double action revolvers were specifically designed to be safe to load all six chambers. Iver Johnson had their well publicized 'hammer the hammer' advertising campaign. Even before the WWII era hammer block was installed in Smiths, the mechanism was specifically designed to be safe with all chambers loaded. It would take much more of a blow to the hammer of a S&W, even a pre-hammer block model, to shear off the hammer so it would fire when being struck. The only case I know of where one fired when dropped was the time during WWII when one fell from the superstructure of a battleship and hit the deck, discharging and killing a sailor. So if you are climbing about high up on the superstructure of a battleship, don't drop the gun onto the deck far below. You are not going to break anything if you drop it from 3 feet.
 
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Thanks. I'd wondered about that. Certainly the Colt, Remington, and major British percussion revolvers were set up to be safe with all chambers loaded and capped.
 
and I'd dearly love to have a close look at a SAA in .45LC. I'd bet the firing pin will fit very nicely between two cartridge rims.
No, they won't with modern .45 Colt cases in a Colt SAA.

Well, they will actually.
But not positive enough the cylinder couldn't be fairly easily turned to the next locking bolt notch and rake the firing pin across a live primer.

rc
 
Howdy Again

As promised, here is a photo of why you cannot drop the firing pin on a SAA between the rims of 45 Colt rounds and expect the cylinder to stay in place. There is about .020 of space between the rims, at the narrowest part, which is where the firing pin would rest. The tip of the firing pin is about .078 in diameter. It will not fit between the rims. Because the rims have a slight bevel on them, one might expect the firing pin to stay put, but it in fact does not. The geometry of everything is such that the firing pin will skip right over the gap between the rims, and will not keep the cylinder indexed between the rims.

It's always fun to mess with this stuff.

Obviously, a smaller round like the 357/38 Sp would be a different story, but this is the story with 45 Colt in a SAA.

clearancebetweenrimsandfiringpin_zpsd93bba81.jpg
 
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I know what you're thinking, You're thinking "did he fire six shots or only five?" Now to tell you the truth since this is black powder and i normaly only load 5 for safty i can only fire 5....

RUUUUUN!

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oh wait, we arent supposed to handle guns safely?

Notice that the guns did have notches for safety but the holsters were rigged for safety as well? id love to see how a flap holster could allow the hammer to get pulled back accidentally..
Same thing with a holster that has a strap that goes around the hammer it self.
 
Ever here of carrying a double barrel derringer with only one loaded?
Or a single shot pistol with the powder in your pocket?
When it comes to reality 5 loaded is only for cartridge revolvers, as they were fast to reload and unsafe with the firing pin over the primer.
 
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