Saiga .223 advice

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chuck pullen

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I'm thinking about getting a Saiga AK in .223 that is new, and has already been converted with a pistol grip and a Tapco adjustable AR_15 style stock. It comes with one ten round (might be 5) mag. Does anyone have experience with these guns? Are they as reliable as 7.62x39 Saigas? Are mags a problem? Can I use 30 round Saiga mags w/o violating 922? Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Chuck Pullen
 
I've got one and it's been great.
Has the FCG been moved forward?
If so, you are probably compliant and can use whatever mag you want.
A good source of info on these is www.saiga12.com
My Saiga .223 will eat ammo my Bushmaster will choke on, it'll eat dirty steel cased cheap stuff all day and never flinch.
I like it so much I'm planning on getting the 7.62 version next.
 
I've seen problems with them, one Arsenal .223 conversion in particular. However, I think it goes rifle by rifle, If this "new" rifle has had only 100 rounds through it, you might want to be careful you are not buying someone else's problem.
 
I'm thinking about getting a Saiga AK in .223 that is new, and has already been converted with a pistol grip and a Tapco adjustable AR_15 style stock.

If the gun in question has the Tapco intrafuse stock/PG combo that is not a "converted" rifle in the sense that term is generally used. It also offers almost none of the major benefits to doing a conversion. It is IMHO a waste of money. The trend I have seen over and over again on various forums is someone buys that thinking it is a short cut to a PG conversion and soon enough realizes why everyone told them to skip it and does a true conversion anyways.

If the gun is a true conversion with the fire control group moved there are much better stocks than the tapco T6 but it is easy enough to replace if you like.

Does it look like this (not a true conversion)

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Does anyone have experience with these guns?

Are they as reliable as 7.62x39 Saigas?

In my experience yes (I have experience with both). From what I have gathered of the reports of others and the general pulse on the saiga forums there is no issue when it comes to reliability.

Are mags a problem?

What do you mean by problem. There are readily available mags. 5.56 AK mags are not as standardized as x39 mags and some types of mags take simple modifications to work. The gun also will likely need a bullet guide installed for most types of mags to work. There are adapters available to use AR mags but I would not buy the one from magnolia state armory, they have a long history of having issues not sending people products after charging people. From what I have seen they have horrid customer service as well. They used to be a business member at the saiga boards until they were revoked for failing to live up to business obligations. There are also saiga specific mags that don't require a bullet guide but are often more expensive than other mags. Avoid pro mags at all cost. Which mags are "best" could be a discussion all its own.

In sum, there are plenty of mag options but you may be required to install a bullet guide (which requires drilling and tapping one hole, pretty easy).

Can I use 30 round Saiga mags w/o violating 922?

Well this depends on what is on the gun you are going to buy. A quick and basic review of 922r might help. A stock saiga rifle has 14 countable parts you need no more than ten to be compliant. So you need to subtract 4 parts (and in general this will mean replaces them with a US made part) If the gun has the intrafuse stock above you have subtracted only one countable part (the stock, you didn't subtract the pistol grip because the stock gun didn't have one to start with). That means you need to remove 3 more. Using a US made magazine will get you there as it counts for three parts. I personally think it is bad policy to rely on mags for compliance as it is limiting and to easy to end up with a non compliant gun if you grab the wrong magazine. Also since I wouldn't have a rifle with the intrafuse stock there is no need to rely on the mags.

If the gun is a true conversion then it is likely that a US fire control group was installed. That is three parts and gets you to compliance with a US made stock and PG (14 parts minus 4 in the FCG and the stock equals ten and the PG is a push since it is US made it doesn't add a part but no subtraction since you didn't have one in the first place).

Google 922r saiga checklist and check the applicable boxes and it should help guide you.


Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated

What do they want for this gun? Who converted it and is it a true conversion? I'd readily recommend a S223 but those things would be key factors in whether I would buy the particular one you are looking at.

I've seen problems with them, one Arsenal .223 conversion in particular.


Out of curiosity what problems have you seen and on how many rifles?
 
Check out Magnolia State Armory, look up their Saiga mag adaptors that'll allow you to use AR-15 mags in your Saiga.

For those who may not read my whole post above, beware of this company. They have a bad reputation built by taking peoples money and not shipping goods. Google them and you will find reports of their issues on a number of forums. The owner is no longer a business member in good standing on the saiga boards because his business woes. From what I have seen they treat customers very poorly as well. After their last round of not shipping products they were soliciting customers to pay via money order. I wouldn't ship a money order of to a company that required me to dispute charges with my card company because they didn't ship orders. There has also been at least on instance of a cracked front trunnion after removing material to install it. IDK what exactly

Also the AR adapter only makes sense if you have a lot of AR mags already. One can buy a fair number of arguably better AK mags for the price of an adapter plus shipping, plus paying some one to mill the gun to accept it. If one wants an AR adapter I would get a renegade buck one. He actually ships them.
 
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Girodin:

I went ahead and bought the Saiga. I believe it is a true conversion because the triggerguard has been moved forward to be flush with the mag release. It has the Tapco collapsible stock, Tapco trigger group, Tapco pistol grip and one Saiga 10 round magazine. It does not have a bullet guide installed. I believe I will be looking to buy some Saiga or Surefire 30 round mags because, as I understand it, they don't require a bullet guide. I'll make that decision after I've had a chance to make sure it functions well as is.

Any advice and info is still appreciated.

Chuck Pullen
 
chuck pullen said:
It does not have a bullet guide installed. I believe I will be looking to buy some Saiga or Surefire 30 round mags because, as I understand it, they don't require a bullet guide.
Installing a bullet guide will allow you to use milspec magazines.

These are much more functional and will last longer than any US-made mag.
 
It has the Tapco collapsible stock, Tapco trigger group, Tapco pistol grip and one Saiga 10 round magazine. It does not have a bullet guide installed. I believe I will be looking to buy some Saiga or Surefire 30 round mags because, as I understand it, they don't require a bullet guide. I'll make that decision after I've had a chance to make sure it functions well as is.

Sounds good. Hopefully you will like your S223 as much as I like mine. From the sounds of it the rifle has a true pistol grip conversion done. It also sounds as if it is 922r complinat. The tapco G2 fire control group is three parts and the stock is a fourth. The tapco pistol grip being US made neither adds or subtracts a part so you are still at ten parts and compliant.

I am with Nalioth on the issue of mags (and he knows much more than I do about the various 5.56 AK mags). I would install a bullet guide. Dinzag arms is where I got mine and they are a very good company to do business with. http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_223/saiga_223.html. Installing the bullet guide is very easy. Some people make their own for me time is more of an issue than the $27 for the bullet guide so I bought the dinzag that I knew would work.

Simply place it in there mark where you need the hole, (verify it is marked correctly) then drill a hole with the drill bit provided. Then tap the hole with the tap provided. Test fit it to make sure everything is in the right place. If it is take out the screw and then reinstall it again with some locktite on the screw.
 
Even if I wanted to run US made mags or wasn't worried about the long term durability etc. I would install the bullet guide and get the tapco galil mags. They are like $13 compared to $29 for surefire mags. So depending on how many mags you buy the cost of the bullet guide will pay for its self.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51455

These Tapco's are likely the cheapest route on S223 mags. Their long term durability is yet to be proven.

Orlite galil mags are the other option I am most familar with but they seem to be much more expensive now than they used to be. I know some people have used 5.45 mags and either replaced the followers or modified the followers. I'm not sure what those mags and new followers sell for now.

Nalioth knows more about all the options than I do. Perhaps he will be kind enough to give a run down on what options exist and the pros and cons of each.
 
There are several options for .223 Saiga magazines these days.

Milspec/Surplus magazines:
These mags were produced for military use. Failure to produce a functional magazine could get the factory worker a trip to the gulag.
Since the commies never reached a standardization agreement on .223 mags, there is no rhyme or reason if one will fit your Saiga or won't (or any other .223 AK).
As with all things milsurp, these are drying up, but even at their current prices, they're pretty much guaranteed to outlast and outperform any commercial offering.
All of these require a bullet guide.

• Bulgarian factory 10 polymer mags - these are considered "the best". They're predominantly polymer, but have a steel skeleton for longevity. These will fit a Saiga with only a good de-Klintonizing of the rifle.

• East German Weiger mags / Romanian copies - The EG mags are very well finished, and the Romy specimens not so much. Both types work fine, but may require a bit more fitting initially. The Romys may be sold as "WASR-3" or "SAR-3" magazines.

• Israeli poly Galil mags (aka Galil Orlites) - these mags fit the Saiga w/o any mods to the rifle except for the addition of a bullet guide.

• Israeli steel Galil mags are known to work, but the fitting involved may be more than most folks want to bother with. Not "drop in simple" like their poly brethren.

• Yugo M95 magazine - these have been known to work with fitting, but you'll most likely never see one for sale as all that were imported came with parts kits.

Commercial magazines:
Commercial magazines are manufactured as cheaply as possible and designed with only one thing in mind: Get the manufacturer/inventor paid. None are "milspec" or can be expected to last if they're dropped a lot, get too cold, get too hot, etc.
Some of these do not require a bullet guide, for those averse to their installation.


• Pro-Mag: If you're going with these, buy 3.
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One in the mail going back to Pro-Mag.
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One to use while your others are in the mail.
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One in the mail on the way back to you from Pro-Mag.
These have a lifetime warranty, but IMHO, it's a lifetime warranty for a handful of poop.gif .

• Tapco: I've not heard anything too terrible about these (either the dedicated .223 models or the Galil model).

• Surefire: Not heard any peeps about these, either. Come in AK or Saiga varieties (the Saiga-specific ones have a built in feed ramp, like the factory mags do).

• National Magazine - these people sell poop.gif shaped like a magazine. Stay away from any AK mags produced by these people.

I've probably missed some here in the commercial section.

Hybridized solutions:
A couple of folks sell AR15 mag adapters for the .223 Saiga. This saves lots of money in magazines, especially if you have an AR15 already, but requires milling (or expert dremeling) on your Saiga for proper function.

Girodin said:
I know some people have used 5.45 mags and either replaced the followers or modified the followers. I'm not sure what those mags and new followers sell for now
This is not a good idea.

Cartridge geometry guarantees failure when cartridges are used in magazines they're not designed for.
Special followers were introduced by one company back in the '90s due to no extra mags being available for their .223 AKs, but the "magic followers" can not overcome geometry, and failures to feed ensued.

"Special followers" are at the least, an inconvenience, and at worst, a destroyed 5.45x39 mag.
 
Check out Magnolia State Armory, look up their Saiga mag adaptors that'll allow you to use AR-15 mags in your Saiga

I've got one and while it works very well, I'm not 100% comfortable with how much I had to mill off the front trunnion to get it to fit.

MSA has had lot of issues from using PayPal despite their "terms of service" banning guns and gun parts. I was beginning to think I got ripped off by them, but I called and they apologized and sent the part out next day.

• Bulgarian factory 10 polymer mags - these are considered "the best". They're predominantly polymer, but have a steel skeleton for longevity. These will fit a Saiga with only a good de-Klintonizing of the rifle.

• Israeli steel Galil mags are known to work, but the fitting involved may be more than most folks want to bother with. Not "drop in simple" like their poly brethren.

I hate to contradict anything from Nalioth about AKs, but my experience with a pair of Saiga .223s that I've converted (the third used the MSA AR mag adapter) reversed this. The steel Gailil mags drop right in, while the Circle 10 mags need a lot more work. The plastic Orlite Galil mags do need a little plastic removed from the front side ribs but its plastic and takes maybe 1 minute per mag with a Dremel sanding drum if you go real slow.

So far the Tapco Galil mags have been 100% in my .223 Saigas, and like the metal Galil mags just fit out of the wrapper. At ~$14 each right now these may be the best bet as most of the metal Galil mags are not in great shape (many are refinshed and my look good but the springs may still be shot).

I needed a bullet guide to use the Galil mags, if yours only comes with the stock mag (bullet guide is part of the mag) you will need to add it if you go the standard capacity route.

--wally.
 
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wally said:
nalioth said:
• Bulgarian factory 10 polymer mags - these are considered "the best". They're predominantly polymer, but have a steel skeleton for longevity. These will fit a Saiga with only a good de-Klintonizing of the rifle.

• Israeli steel Galil mags are known to work, but the fitting involved may be more than most folks want to bother with. Not "drop in simple" like their poly brethren.
I hate to contradict anything from Nalioth about AKs, but my experience with a pair of Saiga .223s that I've converted (the third used the MSA AR mag adapter) reversed this. The steel Gailil mags drop right in, while the Circle 10 mags need a lot more work. The plastic Orlite Galil mags do need a little plastic removed from the front side ribs but its plastic and takes maybe 1 minute per mag with a Dremel sanding drum if you go real slow.
Contradict away :)

Due to the vagaries of manufacturing (of both mags and rifles), it is entirely within the realm of possibility that everything I've shared may work the opposite for anyone else.
 
MSA has had lot of issues from using PayPal despite their "terms of service" banning guns and gun parts. I was beginning to think I got ripped off by them, but I called and they apologized and sent the part out next day.

Consider yourself lucky. I he made me a bunch of promises he didn't keep in terms of when it would ship. I had to file a fraud claim with my credit card company to get my money back. MSA is not a company I would be eager to do business with again.
 
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