Saiga .223 mags ?

[christcorp]

girodin: Never said they WON'T work. Just that the way the may release is on them, it prefers to go further in. Most plastic mags have a slight indentation, instead of a complete hole. And RARELY have I had a plastic mag not stay in place. But it has happened. I.e. after say 15 rounds in a magazine, the rifle goes CLICK. You realize that the mag isn't locked in. Again; this is rare and totally an individual thing. Meaning; your adapter, with your rifle, with your magazine. But that's not to say that the adapter still isn't a good idea.

I.e. The only thing that's important is the "Self Defense" scenario. At home, my saiga has a high quality USGI spec Charles Daly mag in it. But out at the range, I shoot pmags, thermolds, etc... in it. MOST times, no big deal. Once in a while, I have to slap the mag back in to catch. On a couple of my plastic mags, I actually took a dremel and cut out the rest of the notch in the mag catch of the magazine. Took all of about 30 seconds. But I've only had to do that to a couple of mags. I just like to tell people about them.

If I wasn't going for the Renegadebuck adapter, there's only 1 other option that I would want to do.

1. Drill a small hole and install the Dinzag bullet guide. Takes no time, and anyone can do it.
2. Buy a 8 pack of promag Saiga magazines from Sportsman's Guide on the internet. Cost comes out to $11 per magazine. "the ONLY negative people have with promag for the saiga, is the built in bullet guide tends to break off". Guess what, with the dinzag bullet guide, you don't need the bullet guide on the magazine. Either leave it on until it DOES break off; of do what most people do and snap it off with a pair of needle nose pliars. Takes 1.29347 seconds. Then the magazine is 100% reliable by using the dinzag bullet guide.

But other than that choice, which is a great option, I would go with the renegadebuck AR15/Saiga magazine adapter. You just have to be willing to grind a little metal off of the trunnion so that the AR15 magazine can fit in. "The magazine needs to go in a little deeper, because of the normal front of the magazine isn't as deep as the saiga magazines". Definitely something to think about.

 

[wally]

You just have to be willing to grind a little metal off of the trunnion so that the AR15 magazine can fit in. "The magazine needs to go in a little deeper

We can quibble about the definition of "griding a little metal' but its more like 1/8" of an inch, maybe more. Not sure if I'd have bought one if I'd known this beforehand, but so far no issues, and only one of the trunnion lugs you are milling is part of the bolt lockup.

 

[christcorp]

We can quibble about the definition of "griding a little metal' but its more like 1/8" of an inch, maybe more. Not sure if I'd have bought one if I'd known this beforehand, but so far no issues, and only one of the trunnion lugs you are milling is part of the bolt lockup.

There's plenty of metal there to work with. But that's why I always recommend that when a person is going to do this, that they wait until they have the adapter in hand before doing any grinding or milling. Looking at the rifle in a normal holding position, you want work from the bottom - up. Some people, from what I've seen with the MSA version, went from the horizontal plane instead of vertical. They wind up taking more metal off than they need to. But you are correct; it's something we can quibble and debate for a long time.

I simply recommend people put the adapter on; put an AR magazine in until you SEE where it has to stop, then do your work from there. Do a little on both sides; put the magazine back in; see that it's gone a little further but still needs more, and continue the process. Yes, it's inconvenient this way, because you need to keep putting on the adapter to check; then take it off again so you can grind; but you'll take off the bare minimum this way. I wasn't quite as careful when I first started. I even tried doing some "PRE-GRINDING" before I received the adapter. Fortunately the areas I took some off that I didn't need to, isn't a problem. And I didn't go to far in the vertical direction; so all worked out fine.

The biggest issue with metallurgy is HEAT!!! Take your time; go slow; do a little at a time; and don't let the metal get too hot. If you do this, then the integrity of the metal will work just fine. This includes if you're going to mill it and not use a dremel.

Anyway; I have a few thousand rounds through mine, and it's not a problem whatsoever.

 

[Gordon]

I am concerned about the trunion cracking problem with MSA adapter modification that have to be done. Does the Renegadebuck adapter also require quite a bit of trunion grinding?

 

[nalioth]

I am concerned about the trunion cracking problem with MSA adapter modification that have to be done. Does the Renegadebuck adapter also require quite a bit of trunion grinding?

Yes, the .223 Saiga needs its trunnion widened for the AR15 magazine to fit properly.

The "trunion cracking" issues were most likely due to folks taking off more material than necessary.

 

[Girodin]

For me even the infrequent problems you describe (and those described by others) seems like a major step in the wrong direction. I want my rifles to be reliable. Any upsides to the adapter are outweighed by an increase in reliability problems. But that is just me and my priorities.

 

[Girodin]

I like the idea of the adapter but the more I read and research them it seems like using AK mags is the better route. Perhaps I "lucked out" with the MSA debacle and never receiving my adapter. I would be pissed if I paid the asking price of an adapter, milled out a notable amount of my trunion and then had a notable decrease in reliability (which given how all my saigas have run the issue you describe would be very notable).

 

[christcorp]

For me even the infrequent problems you describe (and those described by others) seems like a major step in the wrong direction. I want my rifles to be reliable. Any upsides to the adapter are outweighed by an increase in reliability problems. But that is just me and my priorities.

What "Infrequent" problems are you referring to. With USGI magazines; which is "THE STANDARD", and which these adapters are based on; my Saiga and adapter have been 100% reliable and dependable. No problems whatsoever. None!

If you want something that will take ALL AR15/M16 type magazines reliably; they make such a thing. It's called an "AR-15 Rifle".

I personally think the AK route is also a fine route. "I personally wouldn't spend the money on the AK mags, but instead get the Promag magazines". They are 100% reliable once you snap the built in bullet guide off, and use the Dinzag bullet guide. "Those who say they aren't reliable, really do not know what they are talking about. They are simply repeating ignorance".

But back to the Renegadebuck adapter. If you don't have an AR15, then you don't have a surplus of AR15/M16 magazines. Therefor, there's really no need for the adapter. But in a Dinzag bullet guide and go with the promags at $11 each, AND NOT MODIFICATIONS NEEDED; or go the other magazines. Either way is fine. If you do have an AR15, and/or a lot of magazines, it's really nice having 2 different rifles that can share magazines. But again, do NOT BE MISLEAD; with USGI magazines, the renegadebuck adapter has been 100% reliable and dependable.

Oh, by the way. I think I probably forgot to mention it. At any time, you can remove the adapter, "JUST LIKE IT WAS AN AK MAGAZINE", and put back in your original magazines. "I do this on many occasions." This way I can bring 15+/- AR15 magazines, and about 10 Surefire/Promag/OEM magazines; and shoot whatever. And if you really wanted to do it right, you can even use the Dinzag bullet guide, AND the Renegadebuck adapter together. The only issue is using the Original or Surefire magazines with the Dinzag. But that can be worked around. Then; you have the combination to use any an ALL magazines for the weapon.

 

[Girodin]

What "Infrequent" problems are you referring to. With USGI magazines; which is "THE STANDARD", and which these adapters are based on; my Saiga and adapter have been 100% reliable and dependable.

The ones you mentioned concerning Pmags. I'm not really interested in running GI mags. I have a number of weapons that take AR mags. I have a double digit number of GI mags. They are in every way inferior to AK mags. As I stated earlier GI mags alone are a step in the wrong direction for me. If you run some carbine courses or participate in other activities similar activities you are likely to observe that most failures in semi autos are magazine related. I would only be interested in this modification if Pmags ran 100%.

If you want something that will take ALL AR15/M16 type magazines reliably; they make such a thing. It's called an "AR-15 Rifle"

Thanks, I have a Noveske. BTW there are number of other highly reliable guns, some of which I own, that will take those mags too.

The adapter surely makes sense for certain users. I'm starting to, based on what I want, it may not be the best option for me. That is all.

 

[wally]

I simply recommend people put the adapter on; put an AR magazine in until you SEE where it has to stop, then do your work from there. Do a little on both sides; put the magazine back in; see that it's gone a little further but still needs more, and continue the process. Yes, it's inconvenient this way, because you need to keep putting on the adapter to check;

That is exactly the way I did it, I wasn't expecting to have to remove so much from the bottom of the trunnion. As I said only the right half of the lug bottom is part of the lockup, the "beefyist" part is the top left, and no issues so far, I've run about 1000 rounds through it.


All things considered a bullet guide and using Galil mags is probably easiest and safest if you don't want to commit to buying only the Surefire mags. My actually experience with ProMags over the years make me tend to discount any favorable reports -- just as even the best make a lemon from time to time, the worst will have a few that seem to work OK.

I wish there was more commonalty among mags, why does every gun designer have to re-invent the wheel with a new mag design too? Its especially irritating with pistols where things like the FNP and FNX need different mags.

 

[christcorp]

Girodin: That's quite legitimate. Nothing wrong with that. I just wanted to emphasize that with USGI mags, and done correctly, the saiga is 100% reliable. And as for the plastic mags, it's hit or miss; depending on the mag and the individual rifle. I have a few PMags; "Sorry, I think the USGI are better - LOL!!!", and they seemed to work ok. Although, they definitely don't drop freely when pressing the release. You have to use your other hand to remove the magazine. But functionally, it was fine. Some other plastics not as well. But ALL of my USGI magazines, I ALWAYS remove the followers and replace them with Magpul Gen III anti-tilt followers. I'm not thrilled about Magpul PMags, but I do love their Gen III followers. With the followers, they've been the most reliable mag I've ever used. But for sure; if you shoot mainly PMags, then maybe it wouldn't be worth getting the adapter. I've drilled 3 saiga's for friends and put in the Dinzag bullet guide. That and $11 Promags have been a 100% success.

 

[Girodin]

I have a few PMags; "Sorry, I think the USGI are better - LOL!!!", and they seemed to work ok.

I'm a bit confused by what you are trying to communicate with the use of quotation marks in the above. If you are saying you thing USGI mags are better you are entitled to your opinion but I suspect few people will share that opinion. Of course I don't know what your criteria for "better" includes. Mine places a heavy emphasis on durability, a realm where the Pmag is demonstrably superior.

 

[christcorp]

Simply saying that I like and prefer USGI magazines over PMags. And I think; when replacing the followers with Gen III followers, that they are better than the pmags. And I'm actually not alone in this opinion. But that's besides the point. The point of this thread is the AR/Saiga mag adapter. From what I've seen and heard from owners of both manufacturers, the pmags generally work in both, but they will not fall out when pressing the release. You have to take them out.

On a side note, if you've got USGI mags you don't want, I'll happily buy them from you. I might even throw in a PMag or 2.

 

[Girodin]

I figured that's what you were saying but the odd use of punctuation made me wonder if this was a reference to something someone else said or what.

What do you want to pay per mag? I have a big box of them, including a number (at least 10 or so) that have never been used.

 

[christcorp]

Girodin
You got mail!!!! Pm.