Saiga, Golani, or AR choice?

[Avenger29]

I would NOT choose an SU-16 over the Saiga unless compactness was an overriding factor.

The SU-16 fills a niche market and fills it very well (compact rifle). The Saiga is better as far as durability, reliability, etc.

4. While magazines are a bit more than AR magazines, it's not a real issue for me. I'm not the type that needs 20 magazine. 3-4 30 round mags are enough.

Supply may very well be unavailable in the future. You're relying on one manufacturer for your magazines that may very well go out of business in the near future. Magazines wear out- they are expendable items.

I highly advise just going ahead and buying an AR magazine adapter. Just do it.

 

[christcorp]

Actually; I have found 5 different manufacturers of Saiga magazines. 3 overseas and 2 American. I'm definitely not going to waste another $150 on a magazine adapter. If I was going to spend that $150; plus $70 for a new stock/PG; that would bring the gun up to about $650. Then I'm getting into the price range of the AR's. And then I probably wouldn't be looking at getting a Saiga in the first place. Plus, for the $130-$150 it would cost for the adapter, I could buy 5 30 round magazines. I just don't see it.

Then again, I've always wondered why people would pay $350-$400 for a saiga; then spend $400 more on "CONVERTING" it. If the AK design is so good, there isn't a need to convert it. Other than the very basic needed for 922r purposes to allow you to use hi-cap magazines.

 

[Z-Michigan]

then spend $400 more on "CONVERTING" it. If the AK design is so good, there isn't a need to convert it. Other than the very basic needed for 922r purposes to allow you to use hi-cap magazines.

Most people spend only $100-150 converting, not $400.

The basic AK design is very good. It's the neutered-for-import Saiga sporter design that's not so great. People are paying extra money to get it back to AK configuration, and to have a new Russian AK instead of a used other AK.

Really, both AK and AR are good choices, and the initial price difference will become small over time if you shoot a fair bit of ammo. Buy the one you like best and don't dwell on $100 more or less in price.

 

[nalioth]

Then again, I've always wondered why people would pay $350-$400 for a saiga; then spend $400 more on "CONVERTING" it. If the AK design is so good, there isn't a need to convert it. Other than the very basic needed for 922r purposes to allow you to use hi-cap magazines.

Does this look like an AK to you?



As I've mentioned in other posts here, "converting" is not the actual operation conducted.
A more accurate word for it is "restoring" or the kludgy "deconverting" (from the neutered imported state).

Restoring a Saiga toward it's natural state brings lots of benefits (one of which is cost savings over the substandard competition).

 

[christcorp]

Most people spend only $100-150 converting, not $400.

That's not what I'm seeing. Even on this forum. The cheapest conversion, restoration, etc... seems to be about $100. That's for a new stock with pistol grip, and a standard Surefire 30 round magazine. But there also seems to be the push for the AR Magazine adapter. That runs $125-$150. Now you're up to $250. I don't think the price of ammo is a factor. I have found that whether you're shooting .223 or 7.62x39, I can find ammo for about the same price.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Saiga is probably the best deal going initially. But it's very easy to add even more money into this gun beyond the basic I mentioned. $50 here and there for additional items can easily make this an $800 gun. If I buy it, which is the direction I'm leaning towards, I would only do so with the minimum $100 conversion. A new stock with a pistol grip and a 30 round magazine. If I even thought of spending even more money on a magazine adapter or any other part, then there is no doubt that I'd probably just aim more towards a true AR in .223. To each their own.

 

[gun addict]

have you thought abouth a Century C93 btw? Those are running $650 and from the review they're pretty good, not to mention unique.

also, AIMsurplus has Delton AR for $650

 

[nalioth]

have you thought abouth a Century C93 btw? Those are running $650 and from the review they're pretty good, not to mention unique.

No. You. Didn't.

Please don't recommend any more Century hack jobs to the guy . .

(the Golani is enough)

I'm not even gonna begin on how Century screws up each and every G3 action build they make, and hopes they work long enough to get past the warranty period . .

 

[Avenger29]

And hey, while we're on the subject of the Century C93...have you checked out the price of HK 93 magazines? Yeah. No thanks.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Go with the Golani Arms. The only issue is extra mags. (buy two more). Online, you might be able to obtain them @ say... $35 a pop. Atleast that's what mine were. Because it's an after recall thing, you have a gun that should last many thousands of rounds.

Saiga is decent, but why pay for mods, when you can have a gun of comparable quality and accuracy (and better sights) without any of those mods. Because, a weld job to get those peep sights would be alot more expensive than you mentioned.

Now, Oly Arms aren't bad.... that being said, get the most for your dollar. Unless you are $850 and up, an AK pattern might be a little better.

Oh, and on the SU-16 idea, here's the thing. I have a hard time seeing Kel-Tec's .223 rifle or pistol having that much more longevity than their pistols. Fine, if an SU-16 was the cost of a P11 or PF9. But, it's around $500+ brand new. Yes, it will work, it will be light, and it will be compact. But I doubt it will have the same toughness that a Golani will. And it will work and it is compact. Only issue there is a little extra weight.

 

[funnelcake]

My 2-page reply to this thread got toasted somehow (guess I got logged out while typing!). Anyway, short version based on first hand experience(s):

-Anything from Century is a crapshoot. Absolutely including the Golani...no matter which receiver or "fixes".
-ProMag Saiga mag's (at least the .223's) feature a very flawed design. Spend the extra $10-bucks on a SureFire.
-I wouldn't buy turd parts like $50 buttstock assemblies and $15 optics mounts for a real, Russian military-grade weapon.
-If you don't want to roll your own "conversion" Arsenal .223 rifles can be found under $700-bucks w/ a bit of looking.

Funnel

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Between those, I would choose the Saiga. It's important to note that although the Saiga's are marked ".223", they are in fact chambered in 5.56.

 

[jobu07]

We hear a lot about Golani's having bad receivers. If you wanted one, look for the serial number prefix "GLN." Those, from what I understand, haven't had any issues. It's the "GOL" (I think that's it) prefixes that wouldn't feed.

That said, I haven't had any issues with my Galil, any of my AR's, or any of my AK's. Everyone loves to hate Century.

 

[dschflier]

I would go with a the AR all the way. Even though many people talk badly about lower quality ARs I rarely hear any problems with any of them from people who own them. You can get tons of info on them, they are fun to shoot ergonomically I personally love the fit and feel of the weapon and the carbine especially is just a light weapon as well.
Years ago I used the M16 in the Marines and am very excited about now having a carbine of the full length one I used in the military. AR all the way.

 

[Norinco982lover]

OP: I am going to go ahead and give you the parts list for a Saiga conversion (just once) so you can "believe" that conversions CAN cost very little. This is an actual conversion that I did on a budget.

1 Tapco SAW-STYLE PISTOL $18.00 (can substitute any $5 AK pistol grip if US)
1 TapcoAK/SAIGA GRIP NUT $6.60
1 TAPCO Warsaw length fixed stock, black $31.30
1 Tapco SINGLE HOOK G2 FCG $28.45
1 KREBS AXIS PIN RETAINING PLATE $9.45 (can substitute with $3 or less part)
1 TRIGGER GUARD MOUNTING HARDWARE $0.95 (can use any small bolt)
1 Bullet guide ordered from Dinzag $26 (can make your own out of piece of pipe)

Total: $120.75

AK mags can be found anywhere for $10 or less.

This is EVERYTHING you need to convert a Saiga. .223 or 7.62x39. As noted above you can substitute cheaper parts if you wish or make the bullet guide yourself to save even more $$. My Saiga was $350 cash + this $120.75 and this is what I ended up with:



I picked up an ACE FX buttstock at a gunshow for $25 and then cut off the tang of my Saiga and installed an internal stock adapter ($40). I also installed a rail and a vertical foregrip + I made my own sling for around $15.

 

[christcorp]

Excellent opinions by all. I have been around guns too long to know that not everyone is going to agree on which way to go. But I can read the passion of many of you, and can tell which direction can apply best to me. Norincolover; I see your parts list, but I don't think I see anything there for converting magazines. I could in fact use surefire mags for the saiga, but you mentioned AK mags for $10. Obviously not for the .223. If so, I didn't see anything on the list to convert to that magazine. But I get your point. But the magazine conversion is still another $125-$150 depending on the manufacturer. Thanks again all for your suggestions. mike....

 

[GunTech]

The Israelis designed the Galil with the help of the Finns, manufactured several hundred thousand of them, and subsequently removed them from front line service in deference to the M16A2 / CAR-15.

This had more to do with US military aid to Israel than any shortcoming of the Galil. US military aid comes with strings - a large proportion of the money must be spent on US gear. Israel cannot manufacture Galils at anywhere near the cost of what they pay for M16s.

Never forget that politics can be a big factor in procurement. Would we have the M9 if there weren't bases in Italy in the mix?

 

[Z-Michigan]

But I get your point. But the magazine conversion is still another $125-$150 depending on the manufacturer. Thanks again all for your suggestions. mike....

I don't think many people are using that magwell adapter, but in any event you are focused on the biggest shortcoming of the Saiga .223, the limited magazine options. It is not a big deal if you are happy with 2-4 mags, but if you want a dozen plus, you should probably look at an AR15, or an AK in one of the original Russian calibers.

 

[christcorp]

Well, I have decided that if the shop still has the Saiga when I get off work, that I will be buying it. I've had in the past a number of AK's. Chinese Norinco, Roma, and Bulg. As for dependability, reliability, etc... I don't believe anything else can touch these. They will shoot any ammo and under any conditions. That is important to me. I wanted the .223 caliber because of availability. Not necessarily now; but just in case there are any types of bans coming. .223 is/will be more available in the USA than 7.62x39. Even though I will have a decent stock, it's nice to know that even at a high price, it will almost always be available. Finally, I like the price of the Saiga and the fact that if I WANT to modify or convert it; I can.

But the whole converting the Saiga is not really an issue for me. I don't mind the original stock. In time, I might put the pistol grip type stock on it. I'm not worried about hi-cap magazines. I only need a few of them, and I feel confident in the Surefires; based on what others have said. And for normal day to day life, I have no need for a 30 round magazine. A 10 round is fine. But I will have some 30's. And I don't care about 922r. WHY? Because, the gun will stay original, so it's not a 922r issue. But MORE IMPORTANTLY; if our society got into such a situation where 30 round magazines were necessary to protect me and my family, than either 1) We've gotten to the point where the government probably abused their power and has banned or tried taking away our gun already. In which case, most guns/magazines would be illegal anyway. OR 2) Our society has broken down so far that if we're allowed to use our firearms for such urban/multi-person defense, then the cops aren't going to give a rat's A$$ about 922r. In other words, the ONLY TIME 922r is an issue, is during times of peace, when the government doesn't have anything better to do with our money. But at this same time, I don't really have a need for a 30 round magazine anyway. And when I do need one, we'll have a lot more troubles to be worried about.

Anyway; thanks for all the info, advice, and opinions. Hopefully the Saiga will still be available and wasn't sold. If it was; then no big deal. I'm going to New Mexico for christmas vacation in a few days. I can always look there for a gun I like. And rifles are usually OK to buy out of state out here. Thanks again. mike....

 

[khegglie]

$550.00 is a little high for a SU-16 around here(EaST COAST).

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Norinco982lover has it right, basic conversion is only ±$120

I just bought the materials to convert a 5.45 the other day

AK Pistol grip $10
TAPCO Stock $32
G2 FCG $28
Retaining plate $8
Bullet Guide $26
Shipping $15

$119

I expect to pay no more than $385 for the rifle

But the whole converting the Saiga is not really an issue for me. I don't mind the original stock. In time, I might put the pistol grip type stock on it. I'm not worried about hi-cap magazines. I only need a few of them, and I feel confident in the Surefires; based on what others have said. And for normal day to day life, I have no need for a 30 round magazine. A 10 round is fine. But I will have some 30's. And I don't care about 922r. WHY? Because, the gun will stay original, so it's not a 922r issue. But MORE IMPORTANTLY; if our society got into such a situation where 30 round magazines were necessary to protect me and my family, than either 1) We've gotten to the point where the government probably abused their power and has banned or tried taking away our gun already. In which case, most guns/magazines would be illegal anyway. OR 2) Our society has broken down so far that if we're allowed to use our firearms for such urban/multi-person defense, then the cops aren't going to give a rat's A$$ about 922r. In other words, the ONLY TIME 922r is an issue, is during times of peace, when the government doesn't have anything better to do with our money. But at this same time, I don't really have a need for a 30 round magazine anyway. And when I do need one, we'll have a lot more troubles to be worried about.

OK, just a reminder, you are in violation of 922r if you stick a 30rd surefire mag into an unconverted saiga.

Conversion greatly improves ergonomics and trigger by leaps and bounds. Also, you will see for yourself why people do the bullet guide. Spend $26 and half hour in the shop, magazines now cost $8-15. Skip the guide, and Magazines are $30 a pop.

Bullet guide and 5 surplus magazines (assuming $15 price on mags, can be found cheaper) = $101

5 Saiga Magazines = $150

 

[atlanticfire]

I’m a fan of the Olympic rifles. I've had several of them and despite what some Internet "experts" are saying they are a solid gun. I think the whole saiga thing is over rated. Yes, I've shot them in all there various calibers. Now the Vepr is another story but that doesn’t fall into your budget range unless you could find a used one in that range. I go to several local ranges during most of my weekends and I see tons of half chopped saigas all over. Like a dime a dozen. Get something different don't be a sheep. There are plenty of AK variants if thats what your looking for that don’t require a hammer.

 

[[Pb]]

The AR15 is going to beat the piss out of a Saiga or Golani in accuracy and weight. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal preference and reliability. Saiga wins in that regard.


I considered getting a Golani but was scared away by the horror stories, like every other attractively priced century product I've seen. They really are absolutely horrible gunsmiths.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The AR15 is going to beat the piss out of a Saiga or Golani in accuracy and weight. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal preference and reliability. Saiga wins in that regard.

Well, not sure I agree. Saigas are well made and 2 MOA is not an unreasonable expectation for a Saiga 223 with a good shooter. Many ARs do better than that, but certainly not all. As for reliability, a well tuned AR with quality, undamaged magazines is very reliable. The Saiga/AK might be better if both guns are full of mud, but with decent care I don't think it's a big difference.

Really, get the one you like better. Both can be very good. I have both, I like both.

 

[Maverick223]

Get the Saiga. Don't buy guns made by drunk monkeys.

I agree, but that is not true at all...a well trained drunken monkey could do a much better job than a Century goon.

]I considered getting a Golani but was scared away by the horror stories, like every other attractively priced century product I've seen. They really are absolutely horrible gunsmiths.

ROFLMAO, he said gunsmiths.

 

[[Pb]]

Well, not sure I agree. Saigas are well made and 2 MOA is not an unreasonable expectation for a Saiga 223 with a good shooter. Many ARs do better than that, but certainly not all. As for reliability, a well tuned AR with quality, undamaged magazines is very reliable. The Saiga/AK might be better if both guns are full of mud, but with decent care I don't think it's a big difference.

Really, get the one you like better. Both can be very good. I have both, I like both.

2MOA is majorly pushing it with a Saiga. Most are at best 3-4 while many AR15s are sub 1-1.5MOA with the same ammo.

By reliability, I meant the Saiga needs a lot less maintenance to run right.

ROFLMAO, he said gunsmiths.

Did I say gunsmiths.... I meant drunk, blind, gorillas :banghead: