Saiga Questions

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MikePGS

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I'm interested in possibly getting a Saiga and was wondering about a few things

1. Are the ones from EAA and RAA the same rifle? If not what are the differences, and also are there other companies that make these?

2. How similar is this to the AK design? Really why i'm interested in them is that it seems as it they are a solid and reliable as the AK... am i wrong to assume this?

3. What are the pros and cons of either .223 or .308? I'm not really aware of the costs of rifle ammunition so any insight to that would be appreciated to.

4. Should i just buy a converted one instead of converting one after i buy it? I really only want to get pistol grips and a folding stock added... how much should i expect to pay for this? Also are there any already converted packages that have this and just this done to it?

Thats all i have for now... but i'm sure i have more. Thanks in advance for the help
 
I'm no expert on them, but I will do my best on your question:


1. Are the ones from EAA and RAA the same rifle? If not what are the differences, and also are there other companies that make these?

It is my understanding that there ARE some differences based on the years that they were produced when each of those were importing. Currently, RAA is importing. I have the 308 converted imported from RAA

2. How similar is this to the AK design? Really why i'm interested in them is that it seems as it they are a solid and reliable as the AK... am i wrong to assume this?

They are essentially THE AK design. They are made in the original factories that produced the Russian AK. They'll be every bit as reliable as any other AK, and most consider them far more accurate-- especially the 308 one (my 308 is consistently 1-1.5 MOA depending on how I am doing that day). The primary confusion over the issue is that there are some small differences in the Saiga that was changed to obtain sporter status for import. While it is not illegal to change the saiga to the traditional style, 922 regulations will come into play in doing the conversion. However, if you do a full conversion, you will have the necessary amount of US parts.


3. What are the pros and cons of either .223 or .308? I'm not really aware of the costs of rifle ammunition so any insight to that would be appreciated to.

It really depends on what you want to do with it. The 308 was appropriate for me because I use mine in deer hunting. I couldn't do that with a 223. In fact, there really isn't much use for a 223 where I live other than having a caliber in common with the military. A varmit hunter is going to have a completely different perspective on this that I would.

At the moment, I'd say the 223 is going to be significantly cheaper to shoot than the 308. If I understand correctly, you can still get 223 milsurp. Those days are gone probably for good in 308. Because of that, I have now taken up the study of reloading. If I can start that, I really won't worry about the cost difference. Thank God I stocked up on 308 South African when I did.

4. Should i just buy a converted one instead of converting one after i buy it? I really only want to get pistol grips and a folding stock added... how much should i expect to pay for this? Also are there any already converted packages that have this and just this done to it?

Now this is a good question. I *personally* bought mine pre-converted because I did not have confidence in my skills. However, now I have been able to study what was done in the conversion as well as read on Saiga Forums. I've no doubt that a person who has access to the following tools can do the conversion with no issues:

Decent calibers
Center punch
Cobalt drill set
Drill press
Dremel
A pin punch

You'll need to get the necessary US parts to do so. Here is a link detailing a "budget conversion" process:

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm

Here is some commentary on it:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=2042

There are other ways to do it.


If you want to use Galil magazines in a 223, or AK magazines in a 7.62x39, you will need to put in a bullet guide, which isn't hard to do. A guy on the Saiga Forums named Dinzag has a bullet guide kit that works great. For the 308 to take high capacity magazines, you will not need a bullet guide-- just call up Correia at FBMG to hook you up with 20 round magazines.


Now, muzzle brakes are another issue. On the 223 and the 7.62x39, it isn't hard at all. You have to dremel off a barrel shroud up front and thread the barrel. One the 308, you have a bit more to do. The 308 barrel has to be turned down to the right diameter. Alot of people have the barrel pushed off to do this. However, I have a machinist who can turn mine down without having to pull the barrel, which I did not want to have done. He is doing it next week when my Dragunov muzzle brake comes in.

In addition to getting the correct barrel diameter, you will have to move the Front Sight Block back one inch and bore the FSB slight to account for a slightly larger barrel diameter behind the original location of the FSB. This actually isn't hard at all. It's only a matter of popping out two pins, tapping off the FSB, and then having it bored only slightly. Once you put it back on, you will need to them run a drill through the pin holes to indent the barrel to accept the retaining pins again. No worries. You then probably want to have the barrel threaded to 14 x 1 mm negative threads. I'd do the threading while the FSB is still off the rifle to make sure you thread deep enough.


Godo luck with it! When I can figure out my wife's new camera, I'll show
mine.


All the best!

John
 
Actually, with the 7.62 and the .223, you don't have to dremel anything anymore for mount a muzzlebrake. Go to the Saiga forum, look up a member named Dinzag (or look for his sticky in the classifieds), he has brakes that slip over the muzzle and are held in place by two set screws. Mine has been there for a while and hasn't loosened yet.
 
Are the ones from EAA and RAA the same rifle? If not what are the differences, and also are there other companies that make these?
Same rifle, different importer. RAA is the current importer. The latest batches have the standard AK magwell dimples that the previous RAA and EAA units did not. Otherwise, I am aware of no differences or changes in the rifles since they were first imported by EAA.

How similar is this to the AK design? Really why i'm interested in them is that it seems as it they are a solid and reliable as the AK... am i wrong to assume this?
As has been pointed out - they are AKs in sporter furniture, and Russian AKs at that.

What are the pros and cons of either .223 or .308? I'm not really aware of the costs of rifle ammunition so any insight to that would be appreciated to.
223 is a lot cheaper to shoot (half the cost, essentially) and has less recoil, but cannot be used to legally hunt game animals in many states. 308 is much more powerful and can be used to hunt, but (being more powerful) has more recoil and is more expensive to shoot. To pick the chambering best for you, you'll need to decide how you intend to use the rifle (target or hunting) and at what ranges you'll want the rifle to be effective.

Should i just buy a converted one instead of converting one after i buy it? I really only want to get pistol grips and a folding stock added... how much should i expect to pay for this? Also are there any already converted packages that have this and just this done to it?
Doing the conversion isn't hard, but it does require mechanical aptitude and a willingness to hack on your new rifle. The Tromix conversions sold by FBMG, among others, are a viable pre-converted choice. Expect the cost of conversion to more than double the cost of the rifle; a $280 223 becomes $625 and a $325 308 becomes $725.

RAA is importing a folding stock/pistol grip kit that retails for about $120; that may be a viable alternative to paying for a full conversion. It replaces the standard Saiga buttstock without any machine work needed.

One final note - you can thread the barrel of a 223 or 7.62x39 Saiga without removing/setting back the front sight block. There are loaner tool kits available from the Saiga forum to do just this.
 
the standard 223 is about 250 or so dollars, the 308 is 100 bucks more. the do it yourself conversion will add about 100 or so dollars to it, depending on this or that. everything else is pure ak, they are very reliable, but the best part is, they are accurate! I know we are not supposed to say that about an ak, but my 308 is moa with a couple of diff milsurp rounds, mostly S. american, and S. African. The 223 is almost too easy to shoot, and be moa, i don't even bother to scope it anymore.
 
Thanks for the responses so far... in addition to the previous questions i have another

Where is a good place to buy these online? Someone already gave me the military surplus site which seemed to be pretty good... but naturally i want to find the least expensive option there is, presuming thats not it. Also are they already selling the folding stock kits? if so where can those be found, and how easy are they to install? Also what type of magazines can i get for this? thanks again for the responses so far.
 
Ace also sells a folding stock w/pistol grip that does not require any conversion of the trigger group. It is $180, but it counts towards US compliance parts.
 
Is it legal to insert a 20 round mag in an unconverted Saiga, or does that violate 922?
 
It is IF you have replaced the added the required number of US Made parts.

Typically, if you do a conversion, you will have the 6 US Parts added that you will need.

John
 
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3. What are the pros and cons of either .223 or .308? I'm not really aware of the costs of rifle ammunition so any insight to that would be appreciated to.
It really depends on what you want to do with it.
+1.

A pro/con list from a newbie (that’s me!) perspective, not the expert point of view:

.308 Pro:
- Full size rifle round, hits hard out to maybe 1000 yards.
- Suitable for hunting prey from 50 to maybe 500 lbs (OK you could certainly take groundhogs with a .308 but you may end up with a ground groundhog.)
- Does not drift much in a cross wind (yes wind will push a bullet off target; this becomes a factor for longer range shots.)
- Popular round widely available.
.308 Con:
- Fairly heavy recoil, requires some skill and practice to handle.
- Fairly fast bullet drop, need to be able to estimate range and adjust elevation to hit a small target (more of a factor for long range shots.)
- Ammo weights more (a factor for militaries but probably not for any one else.)
- More expensive than .223.

.223 Pro:
- Intermediate rifle round, low recoil.
- High velocity gives flat trajectory (low bullet drop.) Can set sights so Point of Impact is within 2.5” of Point of Aim out past 250 yards or so without having to adjust sight elevation.
- The above two advantages make it easier to learn to shoot (a factor militaries favored when adopting this round.)
- Good small game round, marginal deer round (you can take 100 lbs deer, but not always humanly or assuredly.)
- Popular round widely available.
- Ammo weights less (again only a factor for militaries.)
- Fairly cheap.
.223 Con:
- Lower kinetic energy, soft hitting round, especially out past 300+/- yards, where energy is in the pistol range.
- Susceptible to wind drift.
- Some state laws limit hunting use.
- In flight and terminal ballistics decrease rapidly with shorter barrel length (if you are going to use a low mass high velocity round, you need high velocity, and shorter barrel lengths give lower velocities.)

Is it legal to insert a 20 round mag in an unconverted Saiga, or does that violate 922?
What a question! A couple of recent discussions that may or may not answer it:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=247735

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=246387
 
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I don't know where

you come up with this information relative to the 5.56 vs 7.62x51 but it is patently wrong. You say the 7.62 drops more than the 5.56 well, yes it does but only in the first hundred yards. Bullet drop is a constant and is the same for all projectiles at the same atmosphereic density. The difference is time of flight and the 5.56 goes the first hundred yards faster than the 7.62. After the first hundred yards, the 7.62 drops slightly less than the 5.56 and beyond 500 yards it drops a hell of a lot less than the 5.56. And as long as I'm on this rant, who in the heck made up the story that 308 Winchester is different than 7.62x51? I've heard so much junk information on this subject I just have to intercede. In the first instance of abject stupidity is the claim that the max pressure for the 7.62x51 is 50,000 pounds and that the 308 Winchester is 60,000 pounds per square inch. Bullpucky!! In the first case, the military and the SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunitions Manufacturers Institute) measure pressure in very different ways. The military still uses copper (or in pistol rounds lead) crusher systems. SAAMI uses pure transducer data. Neither of these produce pounds per square inch measurments and in the case of the copper or lead crushers require a tare table to interpret. Since the two different measuring methodologies result in different numbers, the layman would assume that the military and civilian cartridges do in fact operate at different pressures; that assumption could not be more wrong. To begin with, the maximum average chamber pressure established by SAAMI for the commercial 308 Winchester cartridge is 52,000 psi (transducer measured) and the military limit is 50,000 cup (copper units of pressure) not to be confused with pounds per square inch which afte running the number through the tare tables comes out around 54,000 pounds per square inch "tare". In any case the point is moot as absenting the pressure barrel, shot to shot pressure variations will be as great as fifteen to twenty percent in identical firearms from the same maker. Proof loads (blue pills) for both 30:06 and 308 Winchester routinely exceed 85,000 lbs per square inch (tare and transducer) and all european firearms must survive this without any noticable change in dimensions or damage of any kind. What's the big deal???:banghead: :banghead:
 
I don't know where you come up with this information relative to the 5.56 vs 7.62x51 but it is patently wrong. You say the 7.62 drops more than the 5.56 well, yes it does but only in the first hundred yards. Bullet drop is a constant and is the same for all projectiles at the same atmosphereic density. The difference is time of flight and the 5.56 goes the first hundred yards faster than the 7.62.
I got this information from the internet:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellc.htm

Range--------7.62 mm NATO-------------------5.56 mm M193-------------5.56 mm M855 NATO
Yards-------------147 gr-------------------------55 gr*-------------------------62 gr*
====================================================================
-------------Velocity(fps)-Trajectory(in)---Velocity(fps)-Trajectory---Velocity(fps)-Trajectory(in)
0-------------------2750___-1.0---------------3250___-2.5---------------3050___-2.5
100-----------------2530___5.1-----------------2850___3.1-----------------2730___ 3.4
200-----------------2320___5.9-----------------2480___4.4-----------------2430___ 4.7
300-----------------2110___0-------------------2140___0------------------2150___ 0
400-----------------1920___-13.5---------------1830___-12.0---------------1890___ -12.1
500-----------------1740___-36.7---------------1540___-34.8---------------1640___-34.4
600-----------------1570___-71.3---------------1270___-73.4---------------1410___ -69.6
700-----------------1400___-120----------------1060___-136----------------1200___-123
800-----------------1250___-187-----------------981____-230---------------1050___ -204
900----------------- 1100___ -278-----------------919____-357---------------986____-317
1000----------------1040___-402-----------------863____-521---------------934____-463
* Velocity from a 20" bbl M16. From a 14.5" M4 velocities are about 100-125 f/s less

http://www.65grendel.com/graphics/grendelballistics.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

And no, I don’t believe everything I read on the internet. I’m here to learn and much appreciate anyone who can posts sources that show what I said is wrong.
 
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