Sarin

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Sarin has already been used in terrorist attacks by the Aum Shinri Kyo cult in Japan in 1995. (Due to poor preparation on the Aum cult's part, the attack fizzled and killed fewer people than it might have if they'd had a chance to complete their little plot.) Al Qaeda has also been interested in the stuff. I'ts got a lot more potential for causing havoc than radiological weapons.

What would you do in case of a sarin attack near your home or business?

- pdmoderator

 

[TallPine]

Don't inhale

 

[cslinger]

Run to open air. Most toxins loose potency very quickly as they diffuse in the open air.

Let's face it no matter what happens my tactics stay the same. Assuming I survive the initial action.....

Car bomb......Run like hell.
Gas attack......Run like hell.
Crazy shooter.....Run like hell while shooting back.

Depending on the severity of the situation I may just have to add the "Scream Like A Little Girl" tactic.

Chris

 

[CannibalCrowley]

TallPine

Don't inhale

Sarin can be absorbed by the skin. Luckily only weak forms of saring have been used so far. That said, I'd generally follow cslinger's advice while hoping that the attackers were incompetent.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

I'd die.

 

[hso]

Best option is move perpendicular to the wind direction to get out of the plume quickest. If you know the location of the source that might help you decide which perpendicular direction to run so that you don't throught he central part of the plume.

If you can get into a large building you might get as high as possible to get above the affected area.

If you are in your car turn off all air intakes and move perpendicular to the plume.

If in a subway station. Up then away.

Notice, everything you can do involves getting out of the plume by exiting the area or sealing the air out.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Thanks, hso. Looks like good advice for getting out of the plume of anything.

- pdmoderator

 

[M2HMGHB]

DO NOT PANIC, thats the one thing people do the most. Chemical weapons are made to panic people, if you panic you WILL increase your heart rate and further the spread of the poison. WALK calmly away from the site and hose off everything ASAP and wash with soap. chemical weapons are made to terrorize, the less paniced you are the lesser the ill affects. Seek medical treatment as soon as possible, there is an antidote that may retard the agent, but remember there will be people worse off then you, so it may take time. Another suggestion i have heard is to wet cloth and place it over your mout and nose before inhaling, an imprompteu gas mask as used by soldiers in WW1 (they urinated on the cloth)

 

[atek3]

inject 2 mgs of atropine and 2 grams of pralidoxime
chloride.

That works for most exposures to nerve agents.

Oh shoot thats right, the goverment has deemed those agents to be 'by prescription only', never mind, writhe in agony on the ground until your heart stops beating.

atek3

 

[LAK]

Use that duct tape and plastic! Quick!

 

[hso]

M2HMGHB,

Urine soaked cloth was for chlorine not nerve agents. The ammonia would interact with the chlorine to remove some of it from the air.

Your advice on not panicing is excellent. I think we may have an opportunity to prevent some confusion though. While nerve agent used on civilians may be deemed "terror weapons" and their intent is more to create terror in the civilian population than casualties the terror fealt by those exposed to nerve agent does not directly increase it's lethality. If anyone is aware of a chemical release, weapon or otherwise, they will experience all the physilogical symptoms of great psychological stress whether they panic or not. Only very disciplined well trained individuals can be expected to be able to manage such a response. Yes, don't panic. Yes, get out of the area as soon as possible. Yes, try not to breath in the contaminant. There's really very little most people can do to stay calm in such a situation.

Luckily, such weapons are difficult to deploy effectively unless the very best of conditions exist.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Sarin is odorless and colorless. You can detect it only by technical means (test kit, M8 Chemical Alarm, or M21 RAACAL) -- or by noticing people falling to the ground and thrashing around.

It also penetrates the skin. Unless you are wearing a protective suit, and carrying your mask, there's nothing you can do.

If you are completely MOPPed up (in other words in Mission Oriented Protective Posture) and get a non-lethal dose, the atropine injector may save your life.

If you are brought to a hospital, you probably won't be admitted -- medical personel have a phobia about bringing contaminated patients inside where other people will die as well.

 

[carebear]

What would you do in case of a sarin attack near your home or business?

If it got on me? A little thing we used to call "the funky chicken" during NBC training.

Anybody remember this chestnut? "This goat is a sacrifice."

 

[cracked butt]

Get Atropine/Obidoxime injectors.

You can probably smear a thick coat of vaseline on your skin to keep the crap from absorbing, but unless you have a good respirator handy soon enough, your efforts probably won't matter much.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

'Course, if it's not Sarin (or some other nerve agent) and you inject yourself with atropine, your're gonna die. And the symptoms of Sarin exposure are so delightfully non-specific.....

When exposed to a low dose of nerve agent, causing minor poisoning, characteristic symptoms are increased production of saliva, a running nose and a feeling of pressure on the chest. The pupil of the eye becomes contracted (miosis) which impairs night-vision. The accommodation capacity of the eye is also reduced so that short-range vision deteriorates and the victim feels pain when he tries to focus on an object nearby. This is accompanied by headache. More unspecific symptoms are tiredness, slurred speech, hallucinations and nausea.

http://www.opcw.org/resp/html/nerve.html

 

[Vern Humphrey]

"Okay, troops. You come on a casualty who's drooling, twiching and jerking and has pinpoint pupils. Wadda ya do?"

"Give him atropine, Sarge!"

"And if his pupils expand and he complains of dry mouth?"

"Crack his mask and give him more nerve gas, Sarge."

 

[BryanP]

Dangit Vern, between you and Chris that's two cans of Diet Pepsi I've managed to spray on my keyboard this morning.

Ah, to heck with it. My wife had insomnia last night so she'll be asleep all day. I think I'll go to the gun show and drool over stuff I can't afford right now.

 

[JamisJockey]

Oh shoot thats right, the goverment has deemed those agents to be 'by prescription only',

Sounds like a trip to Mexico is in order. Most pharmacys there have doctors on site that will write you a prescription for whatever you need that isn't a narcotic. It isn't illegal unless you bring it back across the border.....

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
----------------------------------------
Sounds like a trip to Mexico is in order. Most pharmacys there have doctors on site that will write you a prescription for whatever you need that isn't a narcotic.
----------------------------------------

Don't worry about it -- if you ever need it, it won't do you a bit of good unless you're fully MOPPed up -- protective suit, overboots, gauntlets, mask and hood. Otherwise, you'll just put off the inevetible until the effects of your last injection wear off.

Back when the Army was serious about this stuff, I attended a month-long course at Fort McClellan, Alabama (then the Chemical School.) Our civilian instructor, in the course of his career had been overcome three times. He told us one time, while handling nerve agents for a class, he collapsed. They shot him full of atropine, got him to the hospital and brought him around.

Then he went under again. They brought him out, and he went under again. Then a nurse collapsed.

They finally figured out that there was vapour trapped in his hair -- imagine how little THAT is! But it would have been enough to kill everyone in the room.

AND they were all in full MOPP 4 -- tiny leaks in their suits was doing it to them.

 

[Shadowman]

Little chemistry

link

 

[Shadowman]

A lil more:

Toxicology. 1999 Jun 15;134(2-3):169-78. Success of pyridostigmine, physostigmine, eptastigmine and phosphotriesterase treatments in acute sarin intoxication. Tuovinen K, Kaliste-Korhonen E, Raushel FM, Hanninen O.

The acute toxicity of organophosphorus (OP) compounds in mammals is due to their irreversible inhibition of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in the nervous system, which leads to increased synaptic acetylcholine levels. The protective actions of intravenously (i.v.) administered pyridostigmine, physostigmine, eptastigmine, and an organophosphate hydrolase, phosphotriesterase, in acute sarin intoxication were studied in mice. The acute intragastric (i.g.) toxicity (LD50) of sarin with and without the pretreatments was tested by the up-and-down method. The mice received pyridostigmine (0.06 mg/kg body weight), physostigmine (0.09 mg/kg body weight), the physostigmine derivative eptastigmine (0.90 mg/kg body weight) or phosphotriesterase (104 U/g, 10.7 microg/g body weight) 10 min prior to the i.g. administration of sarin. Physostigmine was also administered with phosphotriesterase. Phosphotriesterase was the most effective antidote in sarin intoxication. The LD50 value for sarin increased 3.4-fold in mice receiving phosphotriesterase. Physostigmine was the most effective carbamate in sarin exposure. The protective ratios of physostigmine and pyridostigmine were 1.5- and 1.2-1.3-fold, respectively. Eptastigmine did not give any protection against sarin toxicity. Both the phosphotriesterase and physostigmine treatments protected the brain AChE activities measured 24 h after sarin exposure. In phosphotriesterase and physostigmine-treated mice, a 4- and 2-fold higher sarin dose, respectively, was needed to cause a 50% inhibition of brain AChE activity. Moreover, the combination of phosphotriesterase-physostigmine increased the LD50 value for sarin 4.3-fold. The animals pretreated with phosphotriesterase-ephysostigmine tolerated four times the lethal dose in control animals, furthermore their survival time was 2-3 h in comparison to 20 min in controls. In conclusion, phosphotriesterase and physostigmine were the most effective treatments against sarin intoxication. However, eptastigmine did not provide any protection against sarin toxicity.