I see that Savage scraped plans for the Model 10 in the 300 Balckout as they claim they could not get good accuracy with subsonic loads. That's quite interesting with all the buzz on this cartridge.
Savage scraps 300 ACC Blackout
- Thread starter Skyshot
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It's quite amusing given that the Remington/AAC model 7 bolt action 300BLK rifle does just fine with subsonic loads, as do a wide range of AR15 uppers. I think it's most likely an excuse for an unrelated reason they decided not to do 300BLK. Otherwise it suggests a lack of engineering or manufacturing ability.
Actually I have not seen many guns that are accurate with the 300 AAC. I thought about one in an AR but two actual carbines I shot ran 2-3" groups at 100 yards.
Claiming Savage doesn't know how to engineer or manufacture is the most ridiculous thing I've heard today, of course it's still early.
Claiming Savage doesn't know how to engineer or manufacture is the most ridiculous thing I've heard today, of course it's still early.
Skyshot said:
It seems to me, given the specific application of subsonic ammunition in the 300 AAC Blackout, that 2" groups at 100 yards from a 9" barrel is sufficiently accurate. The 220gr OTM load from Remington is not a long-range precision cartridge and was never designed as such.
Redlg155
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Savage makes an excellent product and I suspect that an off the shelf rifle will either beat or equal the accuracy of any comparable manufacturer. It's not complicated to ream a chamber, however, I can undestand them not wanting a bad rap if it won't shoot accurate. People tend to blame the rifle, not the cartridge.
Aside from the limited amount of users that want a suppressed bolt action, the .300 BO has little appeal to Savage's potential customers. It was designed to give 7.62x39ish ballistics, but better reliability in an AR pattern rifle/carbine. All of it's benefits are nullified by a bolt gun, except maybe subsonic rounds, of which Savage specifically cites as having the worst accuracy.
Its hard to produce a barrel twist that is half way accurate with both the heavy sub loads and still abity to shoot 125gr half way accurate. Thats the reason 1-7.5 and 1-8 twist is being used . Just not a great twist for ether end. Put a 1-10+ on it accurate with normal 30cal bullets but will not stableize 210 or 220gr bullets
It sounds to me like it's a matter of dollars and common sense with Savage, as the 300 BO is a niche cartridge, and was designed for the AR style rifles. It's likely that Savage determined that sales of this caliber in a bolt action would be minimal, and not worth the tooling costs and associated headaches that may manifest themselves with the wide range of velocity and accuracy. I'm sure Savage will do fine without the BO.
NCsmitty
NCsmitty
Coltdriver
Member
300 BLK is cool but the supersonic rounds are just about 30 30 equals, really nothing special, in fact a bit of a yawner. From a bolt gun it would just be a waste of time and I bet Savage marketing research told them so.
The subsonic rounds are basically for one thing. Sniping from a suppressed barrel. There is no practical use for them other than cool factor. The power is marginal and the arc over any distance has to be experienced to be believed. They can be fairly accurate if you really know your ballistics and the efficiency is surprising. So what.
From an AR platform you have the American version of an AK 47 without the tolerance for mud and dirt. Big whoop.
I think that once everyone figures out how neutered the 300 BLK really is its popularity will peak and fade. Not that it will go away, does any cartridge ever really completely disappear? But this one has more fad appeal than several of the other recent introductions into the cartridge world.
I built an AR with a 300 BLK upper which I have now sold so I speak from my own personal experience.
The subsonic rounds are basically for one thing. Sniping from a suppressed barrel. There is no practical use for them other than cool factor. The power is marginal and the arc over any distance has to be experienced to be believed. They can be fairly accurate if you really know your ballistics and the efficiency is surprising. So what.
From an AR platform you have the American version of an AK 47 without the tolerance for mud and dirt. Big whoop.
I think that once everyone figures out how neutered the 300 BLK really is its popularity will peak and fade. Not that it will go away, does any cartridge ever really completely disappear? But this one has more fad appeal than several of the other recent introductions into the cartridge world.
I built an AR with a 300 BLK upper which I have now sold so I speak from my own personal experience.
Zak Smith
Member
There are a lot of sporting and pest-control applications where quietly whomping something within 120 yards with 240 grains is pretty useful.
Redlg155
Member
Same cartidge, or atleast you can fire the blackout safely in a whisper rifle. S&W rifles have both listed as a cartidge for the 300 whispers. They are no longer a wildcat.
It is essentially a 5.56 (.300 BO) v. .223 (Whisper) thing. To add to the confusion, AAC says not to fire a .300 BO in a Whisper chamber. Then S&W came out with their Whisper rifle and said you can. So the question is, is AAC claiming one thing to detract from Whisper, or is S&W using a BO chamber and calling it a Whisper anyway?
When Savage first announced the rifle, I tried to reach them to help them avoid putting out an inaccurate rifle. They picked a 20 inch barrel and 1/10 twist. A 20 inch barrel will not work well because it will make subsonic ammo go transonic - and makes it less accurate (not to mention loud). The factory subsonic ammo is made for 16 inch or shorter barrels. 1/10 twist is not suitable for make the 220 grain ammo stable. We (AAC) even moved from 1/8 to 1/7 to get that edge in stability.
So if Savage was not going to do the R&D needed to properly configure the rifle with the correct twist and barrel length, then canceling it was the best idea. It may also have had something to do with their pricing - I believe the Savage was actually higher than what Remington later announced the SPS Tactical for in 300 BLK.
So if Savage was not going to do the R&D needed to properly configure the rifle with the correct twist and barrel length, then canceling it was the best idea. It may also have had something to do with their pricing - I believe the Savage was actually higher than what Remington later announced the SPS Tactical for in 300 BLK.
S&W - it is not clear what chamber they are actually using. There is no published standard for 300 Whisper. The chamber is a trade secret.
AAC is saying that one should not shoot 300 BLK in a Whisper(R) chamber because it is a fact that shooting 300 BLK ammo in a 300 Whisper chamber will raise the pressure.
Redlg155
Member
I'm sure S&W is using a hybrid, much like Rock River uses a wylde chamber instead of. 223 or 5.56.
Only time will tell. Just curious, are any of the AR15s chambered in this caliber equipped with a gas cut off for single shot use?
Only time will tell. Just curious, are any of the AR15s chambered in this caliber equipped with a gas cut off for single shot use?
rsilvers said:
Out of curiosity, what twist would you recommend if one were building a rifle to shoot solely subsonic .300BLK?
Like I have been saying for awhile the 7.92x33mm Kurz is probably a better round, don`t surprise me one bit that Savage scraped it........the 7.62x39 is certainly a better round.
Not out of an AR15.
Savage is not the first manufacturer I've seen ditch 300 BLK/AAC due to accuracy reasons. The other escapes my memory for the moment (wasn't a big name though).
Coltdriver
Member
I loaded up a bunch of 240 grain SMK's and found you can reliably reach out a 100 yards and the bullet will have lost very little muzzle velocity. That is the subsonic magic of the round. If you really learn the ballistic arc you can reach out much further than 100 yards. For that special purpose its very good.
But the best it has as the other end is still 30 30 ballistics. It does that on 11 or 12 grains of fairly fast powder so for re loading it really stretches a pound of powder. Just slightly better than AK ballistics.
But the best it has as the other end is still 30 30 ballistics. It does that on 11 or 12 grains of fairly fast powder so for re loading it really stretches a pound of powder. Just slightly better than AK ballistics.
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