Saw a Shoplifter being chased by Wal-Mart employees the other day

[GuyWithQuestions]

I didn't know if I should have put this in Legal or Strategies/Tactics, so I just placed it here.

Yesterday I was walking into the Wal-Mart in my town. After I went through the first automatic door at the front entrance and was heading towards the inner automatic door, I see this teenager sprinting for the outer door. Then I see a full grown adult run towards him and to the door. Then the teenager runs towards that back area where the Wal-Mart employees push the shopping carts in from out in the parking lot for customers to grab when coming in. A Walmart employee comes after the kid in that back area. The teenager runs around a shopping cart and violently knocks one over as he's trying to get away from a Wal-Mart employee. The kid then runs back into that area that I'm in, between the first and second automatic doors. As he's running towards the outer automatic door, a lady customer is walking in and sees what's going on and opens up her arms trying to block his path. Her husband standing right next to her says, "No honey! Don't do that!" Then the teenager runs right by me, about five feet away, and goes down this one hallway. I was thinking to myself, "Ummm, okay, I don't see things like this happen that much." Then I walked into Walmart to do my grocery shopping and heard a "Will a manager please come up to the front" on the loudspeaker thing most stores have. It was so tempting just to pull out my pepper spray that I had and spray him when he came by me at five feet away, but obviously you shouldn't get involved if employees are trying to stop what appears to be a shoplifter and the thief runs right by you.

No one asked me to help out. My question is: if you are ever at a store and employees are trying to run down a shoplifter and they were to ask you to help them out or block a certain entrance, you are "never under any legal duty" to try to stop or block the entrance to a shoplifter, correct? Or if you see police trying to chase someone down and they ask you to help them out or block an entrance so the suspect can't get through, they would never and never ask people to help them, correct? Or if they do, you are under no legal obligation to help LEO out or block an entrance to the suspect, right? If that's not correct, if you happen to have pepper spray on you and a police officer tells you to help out, can you legally pepper spray the person so that you don't have to get hurt yourself?

I have been thinking about this for the last day. I was wondering because obviously it doesn't sound wise to help out in situations like this for legal reasons, and because you can get hurt. I also have a compressed vertabrae in my back from a bad car accident that might cause me some problems. I always my carry concealed firearm wherever it's legal and I would hate a scum bag to discover it on me and wrestle for it, which is why if I ever was forced to physically stop someone using my body I wouldn't tackle but would instead spray away. I was wondering if a law enforcement officer could get you for "obstruction of justice" if you move out of the way of an entrance a suspect is running towards or if a store could get after you if store security were to ever shout at you to block an entrance for a thief and you don't?

Edit (something I added later so it's not at the bottom of the thread):
Part of the reason I wonder about possibly having to help, I heard from Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme", page 30 first paragraph, that you can get in trouble for "Obstruction of Justice" if you refuse to help a police officer who commands you to help with a suspect, in his section where he says not to shoot a firearm at the suspect. However, I wouldn't know if getting in trouble for not helping would be true because that book was published in 1980 and I don't know if that was only true for some states. I've been searching for penal code on that and I can't find it for one way or the other. I would want to find it so if you aren't require to help a LEO, I could use that in my defense if someone asks why I ignored the officer. Not that I think I'll run into this situation, but if people put effort into setting up home defense systems, I might as well know about this.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

No sure how this is really gun related but I would stay out of it. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Wasn't this a scene in Spiderman?

 

[Cuda]

Are you sure the kid was a Shoplifter??? If not and you peppered him or detained him, you might be the one in trouble...

CCW/CHL don't give us police powers, so I would suggest caution when circumstances like you describe come about..

JMO

C

 

[Diggers]

You have no obligation to do anything. Thats what LEOs are for.

Its smart to stay out of it. You assume that the kid was a shoplifter (probably true) BUT you don't know for sure.
Maybe its something all together different; perhaps wallmart employee is nuts and got pissed off at a customer and was trying to beat him up.....you just never know.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

No sure how this is really gun related but I would stay out of it.

That's why I put it in this forum, Strategies and Tactics is for anything defense wise.

Are you sure the kid was a Shoplifter???

I don't think that store employees could legally chase after a customer like that without getting in a lot of trouble. That's why I'm asking in this forum to verify that you couldn't ever get in trouble for refusing to help. Or even if it would have been police, I'm trying to verify that you can't get into trouble for refusing to help police.

Wasn't this a scene in Spiderman?

Yea I did think that it was out of the ordinary when it happened.

 

[Roccobro]

Depends on the state. And if a LEO asks, same thing- depends on the state. Although you might think about a strategically placed banana peel or misplaced foot instead of pepper spray if you do want to help.

Are you sure the kid was a Shoplifter???

Yeah, he could a tried to rob somebody or assaulted another old lady in the back corner or maybe even try to snatch a kid.... Whatever the reason he was being chased by employees, I doubt it was for his forgotten bag on the carousel and society better off with him on the loose....

Justin

 

[bogie]

If I have good evidence that a reasonable man would assume means that the person is committing a crime, I'd stop 'em.

i.e., police officer (or two) in chase, guy carrying a woman's purse with her screaming about it, guy carrying a kid while the PA is yelling a code Adam, etc., etc., etc., etc...

I'm old and fat, but can still move in a straight line, and while it's been a while since I clotheslined someone, I do recall it as a pleasurable activity.

Wouldn't shoot 'em.

 

[inkhead]

I have to much compassion for somebody who steals from a walmart to want to attack them. I know, i know... that kind of thinking will bite me later..

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

ouch clothelines hurt so does a cart shoved in front of ya while running. i might not stick around afterwards though

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Although you might think about a strategically placed banana peel or misplaced foot instead of pepper spray if you do want to help.

I think that I was close enough that I could have easily used my leg to trip him. However, I know that study after study has shown that when pepper spray is used, it's a lot less likely that both sides will get any permanent damage than if tackling, kicking, punching occurs. Although your average Joe of the streets may not think so, if it's legal it's more reasonable and prudent to use pepper spray than to trip because besides you getting hurt, if the shoplifter gets hurt he may make you pay for a broken leg or whatever he gets from tripping. The best thing would be is to make sure in all states across the U.S. you can't get in trouble for refusing to help the police or store security.

 

[Roccobro]

I think that I was close enough that I could have easily used my leg to trip him. However, I know that study after study has shown that when pepper spray is used, it's a lot less likely that both sides will get any permanent damage than if tackling, kicking, punching occurs.

Your right. PS does reduce injury to user and perp. Just like Tasers do.

i might not stick around afterwards though

After an accidental discharge of the tripper just go about like nothing happened and go about your business. Don't give your name to the popo and the crook won't have a name to place the suit against for the bruised ego.

At least your safe and care enough to ask this question. I wish I lived in your town.

Justin

 

[Mr.Revolver]

There was an incident in a local Wal-Mart here last year where an employee stabbed a customer (it was someone he already knew, and, obviously, had some bad history with) and they both fled the store. My point is you can't really assume an employee is in the right or that any fight or chase in a store is about a shoplifting.

 

[Halo is for Kids]

Retail stores train their assets protection personnel on how and when to make an ap. You don't have to worry about them asking for assistance, that would make the store/company liable for your actions.

I worked at a large retail store in Pasadena, TX. They had an apprehension go a little wrong while I was there. Usually they grab and cuff the guys with a little struggle but this guy was a fighter and a screamer.

They had him on the ground outside and I could hear him screaming from the back of the store. I ran to the front to see what was going on and came upon this scene:
The 35-40 y/o male, weighing about 250-300lbs, was on the ground waving around his one free hand and screaming for the AP guys to let him go. Three AP guys were holding him down and one had managed to get an arm cuffed. The other AP guy was just walking in half circles around the group with his cuffs in his hand, not knowing what to do.

The perp reached into his pants with his free hand and pulled out a dvd screaming "take it back, let me go, I didn't do nothin."

In the rest of the struggle the thief lost control of his pants and his bowels. When his pants came down, he crapped all over an AP guy's leg. A few moments later an unmarked car showed up and two detectives got out to finish the ap.

When he reached into his pants for the DVD I had an Oh S*** moment. That guy could have had a knife or a gun instead of that DVD in his free hand.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Retail stores train their assets protection personel on how and when to make an ap. You don't have to worry about them asking for assistance, that would make the store/company liable for your actions.

What about police officers? If a LEO requests that a normal civilian assist him and he doesn't, could the normal civilian get in trouble for obstruction of justice?

 

[Halo is for Kids]

What about police officers? If a LEO requests that a normal civilian assist him and he doesn't, could the normal civilian get in trouble for obstruction of justice?

That sounds like a good question for your local LE. I would think that kind of law would vary by location.

 

[Autolycus]

CCW does not mean cop. Remember that.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

CCW does not mean cop. Remember that.

All a concealed firearms permit in my state does is allow you to carry a firearm on your person, car, and public schools. Of course I wouldn't use a gun on him I was wondering if you can get in trouble for obstruction of justice if you refuse to help if asked to, and if for instance a LEO asked for help if you could use pepper spray instead of putting your body in the way and risking injury?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

That's why I put it in this forum, Strategies and Tactics is for anything defense wise.

But stopping a shoplifter who is ripping off a store you don't own has nothing to do with defense.

Of course I wouldn't use a gun on him I was wondering if you can get in trouble for obstruction of justice if you refuse to help if asked to,

I fail to see how not helping a LEO who asked for help could be considered obstruction of justice. It was a request, not a lawful order.

and if for instance a LEO asked for help if you could use pepper spray instead of putting your body in the way and risking injury?

While you may have been asked for help, it really does not matter if you think providing help could get you injured as a justification for using pepper spray. You only get to use pepperspray on the shoplifter if such an assault is considered as a legal way to stop said criminal. Being asked for help from a cop and fearing injury does not change use of force law.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Obstruction of Justice?

Part of the reason I wonder about possibly having to help, I heard from Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme", page 30 first paragraph, that you can get in trouble for "Obstruction of Justice" if you refuse to help a police officer who commands you to help with a suspect, in his section where he says not to shoot a firearm at the suspect. However, I wouldn't know if getting in trouble for not helping would be true because that book was published in 1980 and I don't know if that was only true for some states. I've been searching for penal code on that and I can't find it for one way or the other. I would want to find it so if you aren't require to help a LEO, I could use that in my defense if someone asks why I ignored the officer. Not that I think I'll run into this situation, but if people put effort into setting up home defense systems, I might as well know about this.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

While you may have been asked for help, it really does not matter if you think providing help could get you injured as a justification for using pepper spray. You only get to use pepperspray on the shoplifter if such an assault is considered as a legal way to stop said criminal. Being asked for help from a cop and fearing injury does not change use of force law.

I know some states, such as California I believe, say that you can't strike or hit someone in citizens arrest nor protecting property and that they can't get hurt. I was reading my state penal code and it says that you can use force when and to the extent that you reasonably believe that it's needed in citizens arrest and for protecting property that's either your own or that you have a duty to protect. That's why I was wondering about the getting in trouble for "Obstruction of Justice" if you move out of the way to let a suspect through if a law enforcement officer shouts at you to block off an entrance. If that was the case and you could get in trouble for ignoring the officer, then one could argue that you're protecting property that you have a duty to protect. Most likely it wouldn't have to do with protecting property, but more closely related to helping out an officer.

It is more reasonable and prudent to use pepper spray than to use your body to block off an entrance because study after study has found that there's much less likely to be injury if pepper spray is used than physical body contact. Use of force law in my state says "non-deadly force when and to the extent one reasonably believes is needed", at least those are the words used in the code I found for my state legislation website.

But stopping a shoplifter who is ripping off a store you don't own has nothing to do with defense.

If a police officer shouts at you to block off an entrance, you can always possibly get hurt, and so that is defense related.

 

[JamisJockey]

Did the guy commit a violent felony, that I'm witnessing or witnessed, and can put an immediate stop to?
If the answer is no, then I've no interest in intervening. I'd be putting my life and the perp's life in jeapordy over what, a DVD or pack of smokes?
No, I'm not participating.
If a uniformed or clearly identified police officer asks for my help, thats another story.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Part of the reason I wonder about possibly having to help, I heard from Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme", page 30 first paragraph, that you can get in trouble for "Obstruction of Justice" if you refuse to help a police officer who commands you to help with a suspect,

So which is it that you are talking about? Are you talking about an officer asking (as in the OP) for your help or are you talking about an officer giving you some sort of lawful order? In the Ayoob example, the officer was commanding the person NOT to shoot, to NOT interact. This is the exact opposite of asking a person for help. Even if the officer gave a command for help, the civilian does not have to do anything that puts his/her life in jeopardy.

If a police officer shouts at you to block off an entrance, you can always possibly get hurt, and so that is defense related.

You are talking about pre-emptively assaulting another person so that you don't have to engage in defnese. Interesting. You really should talk to a lawyer. I think you have read way too much into your scenario and confused some key issues. These aren't going to be answered by us because we have no idea what your laws are and few, if any of us are lawyers in your area.

 

[308win]

The police told us that while we have the right to apprehend a shoplifter instead we should get all the identifying information we can and call the police. The police were not in the least bit encouraging us to attempt apprehension and it really had nothing to do with falsely accusing someone of shoplifting but more with the physical risks to us and the shoplifter. As much as it may rankle you, the best thing is to stay out of it except for being a good witness. And, in Ohio, if you were to draw your weapon on a shoplifter - whether or not you are the store owner or an employee - you may wish you hadn't depending on the philosophy of the police dept. The take away, you aren't law enforcement.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Asked & Answered

"And that's all I have to say about that."

(If one of the S&T mods wants to re-open, that's fine by me, but it seems just the slightest bit off-topic.)