Say "It Ain't So" S&W

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Found out just yesterday for sure that since the marriage of S&W and
Walther, they have decided to drop the ever so popular PPK from the
line. As now, only the stainless PPK/S is offered.

First, the '68 GCA got the original German Walther PPK, now it seems
that S&W has decided that the stainless version has NO use in our
society!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[10-Ring]

Another fine decision from our "friends" at S&W!

 

[Onmilo]

Lack of actual sales has a lot to do with 'No Use".
Why build what folks aren't buying and folks aren't buying $500.00 .380s.
They haven't stopped the 3.5" P22 because folks are buying these $225.00 rimfire poppers by the thousands.

 

[MrTuffPaws]

Maybe they should reengineer the PPK to a locking block design chambered in 9mm para. I bet they would sell a few of those.

 

[fastbolt]

Did you ask anyone at S&W why?

Did you ask them how demand has been for that particular model?

S&W has discontinued more than a few guns that I'd have liked to have seen continued being offered in their catalog, but the "insidious" reasoning behind their being discontinued has generally been that it wasn't profitable to continue to produce them, based upon consumer demand.

" ... the ever so popular PPK ..."

Popular with who, exactly?

Granted, there's probably always going to be a small core of firearms enthusiasts who like the little PPK for its history and place within the 20th century's evolving design of pocket pistols ... but I've looked long and hard to find anyone that was seriously thinking about buying one out here. I've asked guys that are always buying handguns ... folks in a public gun club ... cops who buy guns just to buy guns ... everyone I could come across. I've yet to find a line forming to buy the new ones.

Apparently there's just so many other, newer small defensive pistols being marketed that interest in them isn't what it used to be. I've watched them dwindling in favor among CCW folks, too, and see very few of them coming though the CCW course nowadays. Not many of them coming through as off duty weapons, either. One thing that comes to mind is remembering how a couple of folks that brought their Walthers to the CCW course realized for themselves that they shot one of their other pistols much better.

Nostalgia is one thing, but when your life may be at stake, functional reliability, ergonomics, accuracy and general shooter comfort/confidence is often more important to many folks when it comes to handguns carried for serious defensive purpose.

Sure, I've seen Walthers that functioned just fine for their owners, but I've come across many more folks that experienced functioning problems with their guns. It might've been more shooter related (grip issues resulting in "slide bite", and which interfered with cycling furing recoil), or ammunition-related (perhaps not exactly tolerant of many of the newer JHP/BHP ammunition designs), or even design-related (really heavy DA trigger) ... but when compared to many of the newer designs being marketed, there's just a lot more competition for the shooter's dollars than ever before.

This may not be an overt attack on RKBA as much as it is a marketing decision. Besides, S&W has quite a few other projects in development right now ...

Nobody got upset when S&W decided that market demand for the CS40 was lacking, and then discontinued that model. The demand for the CS9 & CS45 is very high, and they're selling very well (especially among cops for off duty weapons) ... but in the last year of production before it was discontinued, I was told by someone at S&W that they'd sold less than 100 units of the CS40 model, so it was a simple market decision to discontinue that model and continue the models that were strong sellers. Sounds like business common sense, to me.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Ala Dan]

Att: fastbolt my friend-

No, I did not personally speak to anyone at S&W. This was purely
second-hand information as passed on by another rep of a major
firearms company.

You are right in your comments concerning sales of the PPK; as I
can't recall selling even the PPK/S model since I entered the gun
business back in September of this year. As a matter of fact, the
same holds true for the SIG 232; as well as Beretta models 84,85,
and 86. The only one that is really selling seems to be the $199
Bersa Thunder Duotone .380; and sales of this weapon have gone
slap thru the roof! We can't keep 'em in stock.

As to the reliability issues associated with the PPK; as I said, my
daughters InterArms PPK has functioned flawlessly with all types
of ammunition including JHP's. These are the firearms that were
made by Ranger FireArms of Gadsden, AL, under license/contract
agreement with Carl Walther Waffenfabrik of Germany. Her gun
is a 1995 production model.

I recall an incident a few years ago about a female Secret Service
agent who was off duty, and trying to chamber a round in her PPK
that she carried as an "off duty" piece. Seems as though she was
rather "weak handed", and trying to chamber the round while the
weapon was pointed at herself. Anyway, the weapon discharged,
striking her in the lower right side. Instead of calling 911 for an
ambulance, she calls her office to report the incident. Needless
to say, they found her lying on her kitchen floor DOS; with the
PPK lying next to her. Moral of the story is, maybe S&W will tool
up and redesign the PPK and incorporate a slide lock; then they
may can reintroduce it as the S&W-Walther PPK-A1?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[denfoote]

This makes me glad that I already have mine!!!

 

[Jehzsa]

Maybe, just maybe, S&W will import the PPKe. Made in Hungary by FEG and less expensive. http://remtek.com/arms/walther/model/ppke/

From the stories that I've read about and heard, the S&W product was pretty deficient. I never bought one and I don't think I ever will. Already have my fair share of headaches.

 

[bytor94]

Lack of actual sales has a lot to do with 'No Use".
Why build what folks aren't buying and folks aren't buying $500.00 .380s.
They haven't stopped the 3.5" P22 because folks are buying these $225.00 rimfire poppers by the thousands.

At the gunstore I work at, we have sold one PPK/S in the last year. In the same time we have sold more than seven (that's just the ones I can recall off the top of my head) Sig P-232's. So the $500.00 .380 is selling, just not in a PPK flavor.

And we have sold many of the P-22's and Neos poppers also.

 

[stans]

I don't think the PPK is all that popular. One of my friends had one, terrible trigger and the hammer and slide just tore his hand to pieces. He sold it and bought a 2-1/2 inch barreled S&W model 19. The PPK has a long history of heavy trigger pulls and chewing up the hands that feed them. I really think that if it had not been for James Bond, the PPK would have never achieved much popularity.

 

[Alan Fud]

Maybe they should reengineer the PPK to a locking block design chambered in 9mm para. I bet they would sell a few of those.

If Rohrbaugh can make a R9 chambered in 9mm which is even smaller than the PPK, I see no reason why the PPK can't be re-engineered for a 9mm. I know that I would buy you.

Anyone at S&W or Walther listening?

 

[Standing Wolf]

I have a hunch a reliable PPK takes more hand fitting than Smith & Wesson is willing to invest in firearms.

 

[Onmilo]

Hey bytor94 remember the H&K P4?
We used to sell scadloads of those guns back in the way back.
Even the four caliber kit was pretty popular.
Never see them come back in on trade either, don't know if they are sitting in drawers or if they self destructed over the years.

Anyway we were talking Walther guns on this thread, not Sigs and lets face it, Sigs have a following bordering on cult.
Actually so do Walther PP-whatevers as long as they aren't stainless steel and stamped Interarms or S&W.

 

[fastbolt]

Ala Dan,

I've only spoken to the folks at S&W about the various Walther product line, and the versions Walther licensed S&W to produce, as I've needed to ... which isn't very often.

I've known the occasional person that owned an American made PPK/S which functioned with just about any ammunition they used ... but those folks were in the minority, unfortunately.

Funny you should mention the addition of a slide stop, though, one which could be externally activated, being incorporated in the American produced PPK & PPK/S.

Before the S&W version was released, I was told by someone from S&W that the idea of incorporating such a slide stop had already been discussed, and might be further explored at some point down the road. I'm sure that licensing agreements and all of the involved legal considerations revolving around the design would have to be explored and resolved, as well. Although the Walther PPK series hasn't ever interested me (it doesn't fit my hands well, and I dislike the heavy triggers) I'd be sort of curious to see how they might manage to squeeze a slide stop lever in the frame.

Then, there's the potential market to consider, with all of the other .380's available, many of which are sufficiently reliable and affordable. As you mentioned with the Bersa, there's probably some growing consumer interest and competition in the "pocket pistol" market. R&D costs money, and that money has to be recovered at some point.

Of course, I'm sure the other thing to consider is that with the wealth of smaller 9mm pistols entering the market, there's some competition regarding the calibers available in similar size pistol platforms.

Your thread topic has made me curious, however, and I'm going to try and remember to ask about this the next time I have occasion to talk to someone at the factory.

By the way, the new Walther product that REALLY interests me is the G22 bullpup .22 rifle. From what I've been told, this is going to be an outstanding semiauto .22 rifle, and will be fully supported with all manner of accessories.

Best always,
fb

 

[Zardoz]

We've sold quite a few new PPK'S's but some go back do to feeding problems and they are grossly over priced. We sell a heck of alot more Bersa Thunders and they never come back. they are also less than half the price , are lighter, and have a slide stop. If I were in the marked for a 9mm sized 380, it would be the Bersa.

 

[Kestrel]

Unreliable... Cuts your hand when firing... 20 pound trigger pull... .380 caliber in a 9mm sized gun...

Wonder why they don't sell...

 

[Trebor]

I'm convinced that if it wasn't James Bond's gun, the shooting world would have largely forgotten about the PPK years ago. It would just be another Curio and Relic only shot by a few.

 

[SouthpawShootr]

I'm convinced that if it wasn't James Bond's gun, the shooting world would have largely forgotten about the PPK years ago. It would just be another Curio and Relic only shot by a few.

Well, now we know the future of the P99, don't we.

I have a PPK/S and a PPK. The PPK is pre-war but a shooter (somebody reblued it and screwed the polishing up royally, you can barely see the manufacturers info). It's accurate and completely reliable, but I don't carry it. My PPK/S is an Interarms licensed US manufactured and is finally smoothing out after nearly 700 rounds, still bites me regularly.

 

[Zundfolge]

Don't blame S&W, blame Kahr

 

[HankB]

To echo what others have already said, the PPK is not noted for reliability. As seems to be typical of Walther firearms, some of them work just fine. BUT . . . here's the rub . . . a fairly high percentage are "reliability challenged."

At the range, I've seen too many PPKs - German as well as US made - that just don't work, even with ball ammo, to be impressed with this pricey little pistol. (Though not nearly as common, the competing Mauser HSc's I've seen have functioned better, in what is, IMHO, a neater package.)

If S&W resurrects it, I expect it will have not just a slide lock, but an integral trigger lock and magazine disconnect . . .

 

[Jiml3]

Why would you buy a PPK when you can get a Kahr PM9 for about the same price. The Kahr is more refined and fires 9mm. versus a .380. I looked at the Walther and the Sig P232 and decided the Kahr was a better buy. Let's face it, the PPK is an old design with drawbacks.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Well I guess I just lucky my stainless Interarms PPK/S fires every thing Ive tried in it. I don't have a problem of being bitten Ive looked a the new S&W and I'll keep my Interarms . Yes my Bersa is as depenable better trigger and a little lighter. I like them both and carry one or the other. But my best 380 is my Colt Mustang. But as we all know their not made anymore either.

 

[mpmillen]

PPK not discontinued

Say what you will about the PPK design,

Smith recently spent the time and money to put the PPK on California's approved handgun list ( http://justice.doj.ca.gov/safeguns/safeguns_new.taf )
so I think it is fair to say they are not being discontinued.

I would refrain from a posting a lament regarding an product's cancelation (and the follow up comments from the peanut gallery about how the cause of the discontinuation was poor quality, bad ergonics, and slow sales) until talking to the manufacturer.

This thread is pure rumor based on wild speculation.


Mark

 

[Ala Dan]

Att: Mark

With all due respect, it might have made Kali's approved list; but we
can't get them to sell. Now, I know the demand for these little gems
aren't all that great; but we do need a few for stock! How about you
sending a few our way?

FWIW, here at The High Road we debate the arguement; we DO NOT
criticize other members by unwanted comments!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[mpmillen]

Ditto on the mutual rspect thing

I stand by my post, which merely stated:

"I would refrain from a posting a lament regarding an product's cancelation (and the follow up comments from the peanut gallery about how the cause of the discontinuation was poor quality, bad ergonics, and slow sales) until talking to the manufacturer.

This thread is pure rumor based on wild speculation."

Aside from some poor grammer and bad spelling, I think this assessment remains accurate.

Mark