SBR Lower Registering Question

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Masterpbrew

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Hello everyone,

I did a search for this but couldn't come up with the exact answer I'm looking for. I have decided to go the SBR route on my next M4gery, and have never dealt with NFA rules before. I will be building the lower, then getting a 10.5" or 11.5" assembled upper.

My question is this, can I buy the lower (it will be an Anvil Arms) and receive it through my LGS, then register it as the SBR, then after receiving my paperwork order a SBR upper from LMT or another manufacturer to be sent straight to me? This way, I am not paying the high prices of "Class III" transfer fees in my area, because I would not need to have anything transferred through them.

I hope this all makes sense, if you need me to clarify anything in my question let me know. Thanks in advance for the help.
 
You can take your standard, NON SBR receiver, then using a Form 1, register it yourself. Going this route, you can NEVER sell it. Going the Form 4 route through a Mfgr, and paying the fees of a transfer, you can sell it one day. Never know who is going to take office, and if the new production of SBR's becomes illegal, as machine guns, it too could be worth thousands of dollars one day. Just have that tax stamp in hand before taking possession of the upper, or have a registered AR pistol lower in your possession.
 
That's not true... I've sold several Form 1 papered (roll your own) weapons. In fact several suppressor mfg's I know started out by Form 1 building suppressors and then obtained the C2 mfg's license.
-J.Burnett
 
I would also add that you should get the lower engraved (If you go the Form 1 route) BEFORE you send in the paperwork for the stamp.

Once your paperwork is approved, your gun is an NFA regulated firearm. As such, you can only have it worked on by an SOT (or do the work yourself), unless you are present at the time of the work. Unless you have a local engraver who will do it while you wait/watch, it is much easier to send it out before you even start the process (when it is still just a "regular" gun).

So...

* Get the standard lower however you're going to get it.
* Send it out to be engraved (Orion Arms has done all of mine).
* Send in the Form 1 with your check
* Wait.
* Wait.
* Wait.
* Once the stamped form comes back, buy your short upper.
* Go shoot it!
 
You are not supposed to sell homemade guns that are NOT registered. An SBR is registered, so it's fine to sell (following NFA rules, of course).

Masterpbrew, what you typed in is fine.
1. Buy Title I lower
2. Send in Form
3. Get Form back, engrave lower
4. Buy short upper and have it sent directly to you
5. Be Happy
 
Ok, so it looks like I can do what I originally posted. But, several of you have mentioned engraving the lower. What needs to be engraved on it? Is this just identifying it as an NFA weapon?
 
If you go the Form 1 route, you are registering to MAKE a firearm. You are the manufacturer of your SBR. According to ATF regulations, the manufacturer's name, city and state must be engraved on the firearm.

So if you are John Doe from Some City, Ohio, you must engrave "John Doe - Some City, OH" on the gun (registered lower in this case). If you go the Trust route, you must engrave the name of the Trust and the city and state where you formed the Trust on the gun.
 
I'm still lost. I want the ability to sell it someday as far fetched as that sounds. So I'm guessing I don't want the Form 1. Plus, I dont want to engrave my name, city, occupation, blood type, social and height etc on the lower either.

What is being engraved on the lower when I send it to someone? And why does it need to be engraved? Where is this Magical Form One that everyone is talking about?
 
My SOT 'smith did mine on a Form 4, no engraving, they use the RRA SN as the number for the SBR registration. I repeatedly asked him about engraving and he told me he had a long discussion with the BATFE over this. No engraving since it was already mfgd. and stamped.
As far as selling your Form 1 "Do it yourself" thats news to me! I've been told many times if you are not a mfgr, you cannot resell.
 
I'm still lost. I want the ability to sell it someday as far fetched as that sounds. So I'm guessing I don't want the Form 1. Plus, I dont want to engrave my name, city, occupation, blood type, social and height etc on the lower either.

What is being engraved on the lower when I send it to someone? And why does it need to be engraved? Where is this Magical Form One that everyone is talking about?

ScottsGT was mistaken, don't worry about that. You can register a new NFA weapon on a Form 1 and then sell it later no problem.

Basically, there are two forms dealing with Title II (NFA) firearms. A Form 1 creates a brand new title II firearm where there was none before. So if you have a normal AR lower and want a short barrel, you would file a Form 1, application to manufacture a title II weapon, and then when it's approved, install the short upper, thus "manufacturing" the NFA weapon.

A Form 4 is an application to transfer possession of an existing Title II.

Engraving is required for all Title II firearms. The receiver must be engraved with the name, city, and state of the manufacturer.

Here's my only title II piece.

serbu4.jpg

The manufacturer has engraved:
SUPER-SHORTY (model name, not necessary)
SERBU FIREARMS (name of the corporation which manufactured the firearm, legally necessary)
TAMPA, FLORIDA (city and state of incorporation, legally necessary)

So if you want to manufacture your own SBR without ever having to deal with a Class III dealer, the gun will need to have the receiver engraved with your name, and your city and state of residence. Or, if you register it to a trust or corporation instead of to yourself as an individual (as Serbu Firearms does), it needs to be engraved with the trust/corp name, and city and state it was formed in.

Failure to have that stuff engraved is a big time crime.

The alternative is to buy a lower that was registered as an SBR by someone else, preferrably the original manufacturer. If it was legally manufactured, all the necessary engraving is already in place. Only the manufacturer's name and city and state need to be on there, not every owner's.

It's just that if you file a Form 1, you are the manufacturer, even if all you do is slap a short upper on a lower.

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As far as selling your Form 1 "Do it yourself" thats news to me! I've been told many times if you are not a mfgr, you cannot resell.

It's basically the same rules as selling normal firearms. You need a Class II/III license to sell title II firearms for livelihood, just as you need an FFL to sell title I stuff. You also need a manufacturer's license to manufacture guns for the purpose of sale. No licenses are required to manufacture firearms (as many as you want) for personal use. I do not know the legality of manufacturing firearms to give them away as gifts (when legal to do so). Or for barter.

If you manufacture your own firearm for personal use, get many long years of service out of it, then some day sell it for a legitimate reason, like tight funds, the ATF probably won't care at all, as long as the gun is serial numbered. It's manufacturing without a license and then selling it off right away that raises the red flags.

Actually, it may be legal to manufacture a title II on a form 1 and then sell it right away, for livelihood. The reason why it's illegal to manufacture title Is for sale without a license, is because by doing so, you are evading exise/manufacturing taxes. You could run out right now and get some pieces of pipe and make a "slam-bang" shotgun totally legally and tax-free, as long as it's for personal use, and specifically designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus meeting the ATF's definition of a shotgun. However, when you file a Form 1, you pay a $200 manufacturing tax, so they can't hit you for evading that tax, at least. Maybe there are other taxes involved, but if the $200 stamp is the only exise tax involved, you'd be free and clear to make and sell as many Title II firearms as you want on Form 1s.
 
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Thanks RyanM! So where can I find this Form 1? And does anyone know where I can send a lower for engraving? Anyone have some pics of some other Engravings so I can get a feel for whats out there? Also, I've been told a stamp is somehwere around $200, is this true? And do you have to be 21 to apply for this stamp? With the way things are looking, I'd like to get this now rather then wait till next year. Thanks again for all the help.
 
ATF.gov has all the forms you'll need, dscott. BTW, in my experience they won't send more than two of each form. I asked for 3. Hmm.
 
The Form 1 needs to be acquired directly from the ATF. Here's their order form.

http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm

You also might require 2 copies of a particular fingerprint card, which the FBI uses. Depends on where/how you get fingerprinted. Some police departments may already have them on hand, I dunno.

Orion Arms has been mentioned as an engraver. Here's a link that shows where their standard engraving locations are on AR-15s, anyway. http://orion-arms.com/new/content/view/26/84/

To file a Form 1, you need to be 18. To file a Form 4, you need to be 21. That's one benefit to the Form 1. And yes, the stamp is $200.

The basic process is you request two copies of ATF Form 1. You fill them out, then go to your county Sherrif or chief of police or other chief law enforcement officer in your jurisdiction, and ask them to sign and date both copies. If they won't, the signature of your local district attorney is valid, as well as a signature of some justices with jurisdiction where you live. There are other signatures the ATF will accept, though you need to write them to find out who. Here, the county Sherrif will sign with minimal hassle, you just need to fill out the same paperwork as an application for a CCW, provide names and phone numbers for 6 personal references, then wait a couple weeks while they get contacted, and the police department does their standard background check. Then you pay a $5 fee (the most they can charge under PA state law for a background check), and he'll sign.

Then you get two copies of fingerprints taken on that FBI form. In PA, the state police will do fingerprints for free. Then you need two color passport-sized photographs taken. The photographs get affixed to the form where it says, and you mail both Form 1s and both fingerprint cards in the same envelope, plus a single check for $200, to the ATF. There's some debate over who to make the check out to. Most people say to write "BATFE." I wrote out "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" on mine, and my Form 4 got processed in 43 days mailbox-to-mailbox.

The alternative is you can form a corporation, or a "revocable living trust." You can register the firearm to the corporation or trust, but it becomes the property of that corporation/trust, not you as an individual. Thus, you will probably want to keep documentation of your corporation or trust (along with the copy of the Form 1 that you get back when it's approved) with the firearm at all times. You may even want to write a letter to yourself stating that the corporation/trust grants you permission to possess the firearm, and keep that with it, as well. Benefits to registering to a corporation or trust is that you can completely skip the chief law enforcement signoff, fingerprints, and photos.

Anyway, yeah. Fill everything out, mail it, then wait. The average wait has been about 60 days for individual, 45 or so for corporations/trusts, but it's probably longer at the moment, due to the election panic. Mine was 43 days, filed as an individual.

Once the paperwork comes back approved, make about a zillion xeroxes of it, then put the original in a safety deposit box in a bank or something. You absolutely do not want to ever lose the original. If the ATF "misplaces" theirs, your original is the only proof that the firearm is registered to you.

Engraving can be done at any time, but if you have it done locally, it's easier to do before the paperwork comes back, since you can leave the firearm with the engraver, no sweat. Once it's registered as a title II, though, no one but you or a licensed Class II/III dealer can possess that firearm. The only way to have it engraved locally by a normal engraver, would be if the firearm never left your possession. So you would need to stand in the same room as the firearm the whole time, otherwise you and the engraver both commit felonies.

What's engraved really isn't a big deal. It just has to have your name (or the name of your corporation or trust) on one line, then your city and state of residence (or incorporation) on the next.

Like, say...
Barack Obama II
Chicago, IL
 
You can get the forms online and/or fill them out online at http://www.titleii.com/ Click on ATF forms on the navigation bar.
2 copies of the form, 2 FBI approved fingerprint cards, 2 passport photos, 1 citizenship form (Cert. of Compliance on that site above), mail them in with a check for $200.

One question for those that have form 1'ed a SBR/SBS... if you sell it later or buy one later on the form 4, do you put the name of the person who SBR'ed it as the manufacturer? For example if you bought a Colt AR-15 that was SBR'ed by Bob Smith, would you put "Bob Smith AR-15" as the make/model? Just curious.

P.S.- Thanks for the tip Taurus44. I didn't think about it but you make a good point about getting it engraved before it becomes a title II gun
 
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One question for those that have form 1'ed a SBR/SBS... if you sell it later or buy one later on the form 4, do you put the name of the person who SBR'ed it as the manufacturer? For example if you bought a Colt AR-15 that was SBR'ed by Bob Smith, would you put "Bob Smith AR-15" as the make/model? Just curious.

I haven't, but that's how it should be done. Like my Serbu Super Shorty, the manufacturer on the form 4 is Serbu Firearms, inc., not Mossberg. For model... I guess you'd put the same thing that was written on the initial Form 1.
 
Engraving can be done at any time, but if you have it done locally, it's easier to do before the paperwork comes back, since you can leave the firearm with the engraver, no sweat. Once it's registered as a title II, though, no one but you or a licensed Class II/III dealer can possess that firearm. The only way to have it engraved locally by a normal engraver, would be if the firearm never left your possession. So you would need to stand in the same room as the firearm the whole time, otherwise you and the engraver both commit felonies

Technically, this is not correct. Your lower is still a firearm, even though not title II yet. An engraver cannot work on it unless they are holding an FFL as a gunsmith has to. You must possess an FFL to receive funds for working on a firearm. Yep, they make it hard on you to get anything done! My 'smith takes his silencers to a trophy shop to get the engraving done, but he never leaves them. He is "in possession" of them at all times.
This is the "loop hole" that got Cavalry Arms busted. They had an employee going off site and mfgr. the right and left sides to their polymer lowers, then they would bring them "back home" and bond the two halves together. A creative ATF agent took two of these halfs and assembled a lower without the use of the "home equipment", so technically they were in violation of the laws of everything being done at the address lilsted on the FFL license. They now mfgr. the right side one day and return them to the factory, and then make the left side the next day and then deliver them to the factory, and assemble. But because the two halves were off premisis and could be "easily constructed", they got popped.
Basically, no matter how careful we are, if they want to come after us, they will! And get away with it.
 
Just another option is to register an AR15 lower receiver as a pistol - put on a pistol buffer tube and never add a stock to it.
 
Just another option is to register an AR15 lower receiver as a pistol - put on a pistol buffer tube and never add a stock to it.

Yea, but that foam covered tube just looks funny! I have a AR pistol in .22LR No tube, looks cool! And I can slap the upper on my registered SBR lower whenever I want to :neener:
 
My SOT 'smith did mine on a Form 4, no engraving, they use the RRA SN as the number for the SBR registration. I repeatedly asked him about engraving and he told me he had a long discussion with the BATFE over this. No engraving since it was already mfgd. and stamped.

If it is a Form 4, then it is just a transfer. Basically RRA made it as an SBR, registered it, and put their engraving on it. Then your SOT used a Form 4 to transfer it to you.

The debate comes with the form 1, when your are taking a non SBR receiver and making a new SBR. The general thought is that it must now be engraved by the new maker. I've seen this point argued for pages, and there are ATF letters that seem to go both ways on the subject. I figured it would be safest just to have mine engraved.

Another reason to get your receiver engraved before the whole process is in the rare case that the engraving gets messed up. If they mess up a random receiver it is easily replaced, but if they mess up your SBRed receiver you are out some cash and a lot of paperwork and time.

Going this route, you can NEVER sell it.

While it has been pointed out that this isn't really true, it is fairly correct in real life for AR receivers. They are legal to sell, but there isn't a great market for them. Since the tax must be paid each time a transfer is made, most folks would rather start with their own fresh receiver with their own name on it.
 
No, RRA did not make it a SBR. I bought it back in 2000 as a standard rifle and then dropped off the receiver with him back in July while he did the paperwork to get it registered as a SBR, then he transferred it to me on a Form 4.
He told me that it is already a Mfgr. receiver, and it just needs to be registered as a SBR, no engraving needed, RRA's numbers transferred over to the registration.
 
Technically, this is not correct. Your lower is still a firearm, even though not title II yet. An engraver cannot work on it unless they are holding an FFL as a gunsmith has to. You must possess an FFL to receive funds for working on a firearm. Yep, they make it hard on you to get anything done! My 'smith takes his silencers to a trophy shop to get the engraving done, but he never leaves them. He is "in possession" of them at all times.

Crap, you're right. I was thinking possession alone, not gunsmithing license requirements.

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If it is a Form 4, then it is just a transfer. Basically RRA made it as an SBR, registered it, and put their engraving on it. Then your SOT used a Form 4 to transfer it to you.

I think the guy meant he gave the receiver to his SOT, who registered it tax-exempt, then transferred it back on a Form 4. It's more common with AOWs to bump the tax down to $5.

If that is what happened, not engraving with the SOT's info is a big ole crime. If it were legal to use the original manufacturer's info, Serbu would have never bothered to engrave their stuff on my Super-Shorty, since the Mossberg stuff is on there too.

I'm not sure about serial numbers either. I've heard it both ways from different people, that you need a brand new number, or that you should use the original serial number. My Serbu, again, seems to have a new one, though I'm not sure. The serial number starts with "T," and the "T" is a lot thicker than the rest of the numbers, making it look like that was added aftermarket. Dunno if it is, or if that's how Mossberg numbers them, though.

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No, RRA did not make it a SBR. I bought it back in 2000 as a standard rifle and then dropped off the receiver with him back in July while he did the paperwork to get it registered as a SBR, then he transferred it to me on a Form 4.
He told me that it is already a Mfgr. receiver, and it just needs to be registered as a SBR, no engraving needed, RRA's numbers transferred over to the registration.

Crap. I'm pretty sure that your SOT, and whoever he talked to at the ATF, are wrong. Unless he has it in writing, on ATF letterhead, signed and dated in ink that he does not need to have his name and location engraved on the receiver, I'd take down my posts and have that thing quietly engraved, if I were you. The ATF change their minds about things on a daily basis, and only a verifiable hard copy of the ATF's opinion at the time of manufacture, will prevent charges from being successfully prosecuted. A phone or face to face conversation won't cut it.
 
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