Scales

[LiveLife]

beam scale ... can it pick up say 1-2 tenths of a grain?

My Ohaus 10-10 and RCBS 5-0-5 will detect 0.1 gr.

 

[Varminterror]

So this maybe a dumb question but since a beam scale measures by gravity can it pick up say 1-2 tenths of a grain or is it only for larger measurements?

Beam balances in good condition, free moving, in absence of air drafts and static, will typically be accurate to +/-0.1.

I entered this thread to encourage you to step back and evaluate what ELSE you need from your powder management device - every measurement method has unique attributes, so not every method fits every application. For example, most powder drops aren’t consistent enough for precision long range shooting, even though they are fast in process. Equally, beam balances are inexpensive and perceived to be less fallible than digital scales, but they’re slow. Equally, high resolution scales combined with a powder drop and a hand trickler can be very precise, relatively inexpensive, but again, relatively slow and tedious. Powder dispensers like the Chargemaster are relatively fast and hands-free, but they’re expensive and not terribly precise. Systems like the Auto-Throw and Auto-Charge on an A&D FX-120i, or the Prometheus, can be exceptionally fast and ridiculously precise, but they’re also incredibly expensive.

So I recommend you evaluate what you need in your process before buying. I’d pull my hair out if I had to load on a beam balance, and my analytical balances are more precise AND faster. A Chargemaster could do what I need, but I had to have 3 of them set up to run fast enough for my needs, and I was always correcting charges and always worrying about inconsistencies between the machines. I have 2 beams, 3 or 4 drops left, 2 conventional reloader’s dispensers, and 2 analytical balances, all used for different purposes/processes - EXCEPT the beams. I haven’t touched a beam in maybe 8 years, and likely never will again for reloading.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Beam balances in good condition, free moving, in absence of air drafts and static, will typically be accurate to +/-0.1.

I entered this thread to encourage you to step back and evaluate what ELSE you need from your powder management device - every measurement method has unique attributes, so not every method fits every application. For example, most powder drops aren’t consistent enough for precision long range shooting, even though they are fast in process. Equally, beam balances are inexpensive and perceived to be less fallible than digital scales, but they’re slow. Equally, high resolution scales combined with a powder drop and a hand trickler can be very precise, relatively inexpensive, but again, relatively slow and tedious. Powder dispensers like the Chargemaster are relatively fast and hands-free, but they’re expensive and not terribly precise. Systems like the Auto-Throw and Auto-Charge on an A&D FX-120i, or the Prometheus, can be exceptionally fast and ridiculously precise, but they’re also incredibly expensive.

So I recommend you evaluate what you need in your process before buying. I’d pull my hair out if I had to load on a beam balance, and my analytical balances are more precise AND faster. A Chargemaster could do what I need, but I had to have 3 of them set up to run fast enough for my needs, and I was always correcting charges and always worrying about inconsistencies between the machines. I have 2 beams, 3 or 4 drops left, 2 conventional reloader’s dispensers, and 2 analytical balances, all used for different purposes/processes - EXCEPT the beams. I haven’t touched a beam in maybe 8 years, and likely never will again for reloading.

So what you're saying is, "You can have it fast, cheap or right. Pick one." ?

 

[LiveLife]

This one is a plug in one ... in the basement ... starts off at 126.5 with the pan tare and then fluctuates to 126.7 or 126.8

How cold is the basement? Most digital scales will start acting erratic if operated outside of 59F - 95F temperature range.

And 0.1 gr range maybe the practical operating spec for the scale.

PM sent.

 

[LiveLife]

So what you're saying is, "You can have it fast, cheap or right. Pick one." ?

My $17 WAOAW digital scale will verify check weights down to 0.08 gr and work in powder trickle mode.

 

[Varminterror]

So what you're saying is, "You can have it fast, cheap or right. Pick one." ?

Nah, I think we can pick two - but I haven’t figured out how to have all 3. We can be fast and cheap with a drop, but not precise. We can be fast and precise with an Auto-throw/trickle set up, but not cheap. And we can be cheap and precise with a beam, a drop, and a bench trickler, but not fast. But having all 3 is a hard nut to crack.

Unless, of course, you consider a “relative definition” of the word “cheap” - largely to make yourself feel better. I’ve had my FX-120i set up for a few years, 3 or 4 now, and have ran something around $2500 in powder across it to feed something around $11,000 in total ammo cost… so then a $1500 powder dispenser seems relatively cheap… or at least that’s what I keep telling myself

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My $17 WAOAW digital scale will verify check weights down to 0.08 gr and work in powder trickle mode.

I stand corrected. I should have known better than to comment on your thread.

 

[starnbar]

I load and have loaded with a beam scale for right at 50 years yes it is more time consuming than digital but I have not made an error with the beam scale as of yet. When I get to 100 years of reloading I will check back with yall.

 

[Varminterror]

I load and have loaded with a beam scale for right at 50 years yes it is more time consuming than digital but I have not made an error with the beam scale as of yet. When I get to 100 years of reloading I will check back with yall.

Is the implication that digital dispensers, scales, or balances would have elicited error?

 

[LiveLife]

I stand corrected.

No problem.

Went through similar as 1911/Sig P226 convert to Glocks when people posted "Glocks are plastic junk" decades ago.

I think in time, people will also transition from "Digital scales are junk" to "Some digital scales are consistent enough for reloading at higher resolution than beam scales".

 

[Varminterror]

I stand corrected. I should have known better than to comment on your thread.

Maybe we have some lines crossed this morning, but you commented on my post originally, then someone else offered the counterpoint you quoted back… Not sure which you thought was out of order - my comment was meant in earnest, we can get two of “cheap, fast, or precise,” - and then we can lie to ourselves about “cheap.”

But in fairness, that Waoaw isn’t what I’d call fast, and it does require more hand moving than other dispensers. Certainly cheap and precise, but when you’re dropping into the pan and trickling on this scale, it’s not really fast, and requires far more operator input than other methods. Faster than scooping with a spoon, sure, but beating ~25-30 sec per charge is hard without a bunch of money. Beating the ~9-10sec per charge I’m hitting now, with ONE machine, isn’t easy, even WITH a bunch of money.

 

[JFrank]

So this maybe a dumb question but since a beam scale measures by gravity can it pick up say 1-2 tenths of a grain or is it only for larger measurements?

A clean beam scale can reliably resolve less than .1 grains, well tuned’ that same scale can resolve one kernel.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Maybe we have some lines crossed this morning, but you commented on my post originally, then someone else offered the counterpoint you quoted back… Not sure which you thought was out of order - my comment was meant in earnest, we can get two of “cheap, fast, or precise,” - and then we can lie to ourselves about “cheap.”

But in fairness, that Waoaw isn’t what I’d call fast, and it does require more hand moving than other dispensers. Certainly cheap and precise, but when you’re dropping into the pan and trickling on this scale, it’s not really fast, and requires far more operator input than other methods. Faster than scooping with a spoon, sure, but beating ~25-30 sec per charge is hard without a bunch of money. Beating the ~9-10sec per charge I’m hitting now, with ONE machine, isn’t easy, even WITH a bunch of money.

We're fine. I was responding to "the smartest kid in the room." No one dare disagree or make a (admittedly semi) humorous quip. Not allowed. Mr. Perfect doesn't support opinions other than his own.

I agree we can try for two - three isn't really practical - and often can get there, even by accident. I was making a quasi-humorous quip based on an old aerospace manufacturing joke, "Good, fast, or cheap - you can only pick two." I think Chance Vaught is the originator of the quote.

 

[1066]

A clean beam scale can reliably resolve less than .1 grains, well tuned’ that same scale can resolve one kernel.

Indeed Jim, nothing wrong with a good beam scale - And if you have the right beam scale you can even weigh the difference between each kernel - this particular beam scale (Stanton AD4) resolves down to .1mg or .00154gns.

 

[JFrank]

Alan,
That scale has a cool factor of 10>
I love it.

 

[LiveLife]

This is why I decided to do the myth busting threads (digital scales was my first one) with measurable repeatable data to confirm or bust the myth whether digital scales, even cheap ones, were good enough for reloading.

And I will say again that regardless of scale type (beam vs digital), if it verifies check weights down to 0.1 gr and check weights in the powder charge being used, it is good enough for reloading. Period. (Keep in mind that 0.1 gr resolution beam scales were used for decades to win matches and set records, even out to 1000 yard Palma matches)

Now, can you do better than 0.1 gr resolution?

Sure.

And once again, as long as higher resolution scales can verify 0.08, 0.06, 0.04 down to 0.02 gr check weights even down to resolving addition of kernels, it's good for reloading. It comes down to how much you want to spend.

Waoaw ... Certainly cheap and precise

I have been a longtime fan of your posts and your rationale that often pierces many other members' vague posts.

While I would agree with your post about WAOAW and similar "cheap" scales (Do note that not all digital scales are good for trickling powder as circuitry cannot work to read addition of powder kernels/granules), my WAOAW and Gemini-20 scales will rather quickly read trickling powder charges (Almost at similar speed as my "analytical/lab" scale that will resolve Varget to 0.02 - 0.03 gr depending on length/cut angle).

And OP did not specify "speed" as one of criteria that was required rather a digital scale option that was more consistent to 0.1 gr when OP's current scale ranged 0.3 gr. And OP can verify whether that's the case. If OP is simply looking for any digital scale with consistent verification of 0.1 gr, there are many options to choose from "cheap" to the $350 Creedmoor Sports scale - https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-reloading-scale-trx-925-precision/creedmoor

BTW, I already PMed OP and offered my RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale as "Pay It Forward".

 

[Varminterror]

Good, fast, or cheap - you can only pick two.

I don’t recall ever hearing where it came from, but this has been a constant paradigm in my life as well. My granddad had a sign behind the counter in his machine shop when I was a kid that said this. I’ve had one on my desk (as an engineer) for a lot of years as well - one of the very few nicknack type items I allow in my workspace.

 

[Varminterror]

And OP did not specify "speed" as one of criteria that was required

I’ve been watching this OP for a while now in his journey, and offered advice above to step back and ensure the new gear he’s being suggested truly fits into his paradigm - so yes, I introduced the idea of balancing speed and precision as he makes this choice to invest in new gear.

I offered the contrast that “speed” is relative among these options (and I’m reminded here of the older Gempro circuitry which wouldn’t allow trickling at all, because it “locked in” the first stable value) because the OP has implied high volume shooting interests, for which hand trickling on scales like these becomes exceptionally tedious. I make now and haven’t made any comment to the quality of the Waoaw product, but rather simply pointing out that it’s not actually fast, as a matter of process, compared to what’s available in market - hand trickling isn’t fast, no matter what scale or balance is beneath it. Throwing powder is fast. Throwing powder with high speed, automated trickling is ALMOST as fast.

Cheap and precise is great - until you spend three hours charging cases.

 

[JFrank]

Ok ok ok
Now I have to know what is -WAOAW

 

[LiveLife]

Now I have to know what is -WAOAW

https://www.amazon.com/WAOAW-Milligram-Reloading-Calibration-Batteries/dp/B06W5VXN53

• 50 gram capacity / 771 grains
• .001 gram readability (displays grains in .1 increment)
• +/- .005 gram repeatability (various internet sources)
• 2 AAA batteries
• Actual sensitivity down to .06 grains

I’ve been watching this OP for a while now in his journey, and offered advice above to step back and ensure the new gear he’s being suggested truly fits into his paradigm - so yes, I introduced the idea of balancing speed and precision as he makes this choice to invest in new gear.

Good for you.

OP is one of many THR members I have PIF reloading packages to over the years who has steadily increased reloading consistency towards precision as he moved from hunting to longer range precision target shooting. (He in turn has PIF to benefit others).

BTW, I am PIF the Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 scale to OP - https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/creedmoor-reloading-scale-trx-925-precision/creedmoor

Along with Athlon Argos BTR 10-40X56mm scope to see the difference in powder charges on target.

 

[JFrank]

@LiveLife
Thanks’ now I know.
So are you gifting a creedmoor sports scale to the op as a pay it forward ? That’s a great gesture and good on you.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Ok ok ok
Now I have to know what is -WAOAW

A brand name jeweler's grade digital scale. Very inexpensive and (supposedly) very high accuracy.
My Lyman Pocket is nice enough for rough weights and between free ship plus a discount from Midway it was under $20. I bought two at that price and now they're almost twice that. Digital's nice but not as fast or accurate as a good balance scale IF it's what you're used to. JMO.

 

[LiveLife]

So are you gifting a creedmoor sports scale to the op as a pay it forward?

Yes, along with Athlon Argos BTR 10-40X56mm scope (What goes around comes around for those who PIF) as wife and I have been celebrating 28 years together and been buying a lot of restaurant dinners of strangers and gifting family/friends. She got a 1.25 carat diamond ring and I may get a Bad Boy MZ Magnum - https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/bad-boy-mz-magnum-54-in-zero-turn-mower

 

[JFrank]

I try a stay away from inexpensive scales, not that they are all bad it’s just that my time and resources need to balance out and I don’t want to find out I have a scale problem during a weekend event.

 

[LiveLife]

I try a stay away from inexpensive scales, not that they are all bad

I think Gemini-20 and WAOAW are exceptions to the "cheap" digital scales but I believe they were meant to be jewelry scales.

They are on par with my "analytical/lab" scale which can resolve Varget down to single kernel. I thought about getting the Creedmoor Sport scale (With claimed 0.01 gr resolution) to test but happy with my "analytical/lab" scale and decided to PIF the scale to OP.