Glad I saw the writing on the wall and got mine for $2,750. This is NFA Class 3 money now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=326220224
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=326220224
SCAR 17S hits $6,000
- Thread starter 762gunr
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MachIVshooter
Member
about $5,000 more than it's worth..........
A man is now assumed "broke" if he maintains an opinion the ask-price for a gun is higher than what he feels it's worth?
Asset prices frequently become "un-tethered" from their fundamental values...this is called a "bubble" and history is littered with such episodes. The most recent bubbles were in housing and credit...which is why our economy has been in shambles for the past 4 years.
Many of those home buyers also paid ridiculously inflated prices and they went bankrupt when reality came back to town. The more prices went up, the more convinced they were that they were right...many buyers think that way until prices crash.
Everyone has an opinion...some are right...some are wrong...timing is everything and it's rarely predictable.
While some portion of the current run-up in prices can be attributed to the legitimate threat of legislation, still more can be attributed to what is essentially a form of the "greater fool" theory. This states that if I pay an inflated price for the asset, some greater fool will come along shortly and pay me even more for it...this is rampant in speculative markets...which I believe we are deep into currently in the gun market.
For what it's worth I've got a metric butt-ton of cash and I passed on a pair of SCAR's at 2k in December...no regrets either as I believe I'll be able to get them at close to that price this time next year if I decide I want one.
Asset prices frequently become "un-tethered" from their fundamental values...this is called a "bubble" and history is littered with such episodes. The most recent bubbles were in housing and credit...which is why our economy has been in shambles for the past 4 years.
Many of those home buyers also paid ridiculously inflated prices and they went bankrupt when reality came back to town. The more prices went up, the more convinced they were that they were right...many buyers think that way until prices crash.
Everyone has an opinion...some are right...some are wrong...timing is everything and it's rarely predictable.
While some portion of the current run-up in prices can be attributed to the legitimate threat of legislation, still more can be attributed to what is essentially a form of the "greater fool" theory. This states that if I pay an inflated price for the asset, some greater fool will come along shortly and pay me even more for it...this is rampant in speculative markets...which I believe we are deep into currently in the gun market.
For what it's worth I've got a metric butt-ton of cash and I passed on a pair of SCAR's at 2k in December...no regrets either as I believe I'll be able to get them at close to that price this time next year if I decide I want one.
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Ignition Override
Member
gspn: the panic to sell when price bubbles deflate might help explain why a single seller in Keene, NH listed over 45,000 rounds of Russian 7.62x39 ammo for sale on Gunbroker in July, 2009. I counted at least that much.
He must have waited too long to scalp many people and felt pressed for cash?
A young lady at Faliaphotography shoots and disassembles her Robinson Arms XCR .308 on her Youtube channel.
Those XCRs must also have skyrocketed? These were also manufactured for the US Special Operations Command.
He must have waited too long to scalp many people and felt pressed for cash?
A young lady at Faliaphotography shoots and disassembles her Robinson Arms XCR .308 on her Youtube channel.
Those XCRs must also have skyrocketed? These were also manufactured for the US Special Operations Command.
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I deal with people and institutions and investments for a living. EMOTIONS drive many decisions. Many people let emotions override their logic circuit and they do things they live to regret.
I'm certain that right now there are a lot of people running up credit card bills in a fit of panic buying on guns and ammo. Many of those people will get squeezed by the decision and many will regret that they did it. Others will buy within their means and be OK.
Many others are speculators trying to make money in the middle of this episode. They are stockpiling inventories whose prices could fall at a later date...if they bought the goods on credit they'll get squeezed. If they raided their nest egg or cash reserve funds they may experience regret. As those prices fall they will get desperate to raise cash and need to sell...this is generally called a fire sale. You see it as every great "bubble" transitions from optimism to fear.
People used to LOVE to say "buy real estate...their not making any more of it and prices never fall." HA! That was widespread and considered rock solid wisdom by people just a few short years ago. Many people would consider you an idiot if you didn't believe it. Too many people went broke for that phrase to be believable any more...a good education is expensive...and many folks will never forget the lessons they learned when their easy money "bubble" popped. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, I've seen all types lose all of their worth in the past few years. I saw it several other times when markets have crashed over the past 20 years...and history gives me hundreds of years worth of other examples.
If you're speculating on property or guns and you don't price in ANY probability of the market going against you then you are likely going to get hurt badly when it turns. Those are the folks that are most exposed, most leveraged when the bubble pops...and they lose everything.
If they pass a national ban on semi-auto rifles and 30 round mags then I suspect most buyers will be OK.
If they don't...and it looks like they won't have the votes...then there will be a lot of people who paid a lot more for their goods than they had to, and who will sell at a loss if they can sell at all.
It's also worth noting that there are plenty of people out there with tons of cash...I know a lot of folks who could drop 10k on a single gun and not miss the money...markets are free...if people want to pay up to get a gun I'm all for it...I just won't listen to people who don't have the money crying because they lost money speculating. Big kid rules apply in the free markets...do your research, place your bets, and no crying.
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ID-shooting
Member
So glad we had most of what we wanted before the bubble started. We only did one "ban purchase" but it was in cash and not at an inflated price. Been buying some ammo here and there at each paycheck as the budget allows. What I have seen is there there are not much in bulk 223 out there but if you keep your eyes open you can find a couple boxes here and there. So far upped 500 rounds ~50 cents/round in a couple weeks time. Bit spendy? Sure but not going to break our bank.
Have one friend who has maxed two cards in the last month. Tried talking to him but he panicked.
Will be interesting when the bubble pops. Saving a few bones in case it does, not going to cry if it doesn't.
Have one friend who has maxed two cards in the last month. Tried talking to him but he panicked.
Will be interesting when the bubble pops. Saving a few bones in case it does, not going to cry if it doesn't.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Trust me I know, I have watched 4 separate Hk MR556A1's go for $6025 each. Seems to be the magic number. 3 were NIB, the other was fired less than 30 rounds according to the ad.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
DAMN!!! I hated to pay $200 more than I had to for Dad's only two months ago, at around $2800. Which I agree is a lot more than they should be. I can't imagine what foolishness causes someone to pay over $6000 for one. Chicken Little does some crazy things when the sky starts to fall. 
Most of whom didn't get to be that way by making very many foolish decisions, like buying $6000 SCAR's.
boricua9mm
Member
Wait a minute, are you guys implying that the SCAR rifles should be priced at $1k because you honestly feel that's what they are worth, or, are you saying that you would only buy one if it were priced at $1k because you already have your rifle needs covered. Those are two separate concepts. If there is nothing that the SCAR platform can do for you that isn't already covered, then sure, maybe the $2.5k+ investment isn't in the cards for you. On the other hand, to say that the rifle shouldn't be more than $1k is preposterous.
Consider this: right before the post-Sandy panic, a Colt 6920 was selling north of $1k. We are talking about a rifle that has been around for decades, whose patents have long since expired and whose majority of technical data is widely known. There is lots of competition in the market, with several companies offering Mil-Spec level rifles/carbines. Even with Wal-Mart's tremendous buying power, the price point was still $1067 at the local stores.
With the SCAR, you're talking about a true next generation carbine that has undergone the most Military testing and battlefield proofing out of any of the other new generation designs. Unlike the $1k+ Colt 6920, the SCAR offers a railed forend, flip-up sights, and a much more complex buttstock design. You're talking about a carbine built from the ground up with a smooth as silk piston system, not some piston jammed into an AR upper. Then there's the quick change CHF barrel engineering. It's also built by a vetted, bonafide Military supplier using some of the highest QA and QC you will find in the market. Considering the costs of R&D and testing that are heavily sunk into the SCAR, can you really say that this carbine's price point should be LESS than that of a Colt and still have the gumption to look yourself in the mirror unashamed?
I tend to side with 762gunr. There is a long-running tradition here at THR where members will say that they like a firearm and/or will buy it, but they always want it for next to nothing. Instead, they'll happily drive $40k gas-guzzling diesel trucks to take their sons to soccer practice, all the while complaining that there is no reason any rifle should cost more than $600 or so.
$1k SCAR. Heh!
Consider this: right before the post-Sandy panic, a Colt 6920 was selling north of $1k. We are talking about a rifle that has been around for decades, whose patents have long since expired and whose majority of technical data is widely known. There is lots of competition in the market, with several companies offering Mil-Spec level rifles/carbines. Even with Wal-Mart's tremendous buying power, the price point was still $1067 at the local stores.
With the SCAR, you're talking about a true next generation carbine that has undergone the most Military testing and battlefield proofing out of any of the other new generation designs. Unlike the $1k+ Colt 6920, the SCAR offers a railed forend, flip-up sights, and a much more complex buttstock design. You're talking about a carbine built from the ground up with a smooth as silk piston system, not some piston jammed into an AR upper. Then there's the quick change CHF barrel engineering. It's also built by a vetted, bonafide Military supplier using some of the highest QA and QC you will find in the market. Considering the costs of R&D and testing that are heavily sunk into the SCAR, can you really say that this carbine's price point should be LESS than that of a Colt and still have the gumption to look yourself in the mirror unashamed?
I tend to side with 762gunr. There is a long-running tradition here at THR where members will say that they like a firearm and/or will buy it, but they always want it for next to nothing. Instead, they'll happily drive $40k gas-guzzling diesel trucks to take their sons to soccer practice, all the while complaining that there is no reason any rifle should cost more than $600 or so.
$1k SCAR. Heh!
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
No, I'm saying that if it were $1500 I could justify getting one for myself.
If I'm paying close to $3000 for a single firearm, it ain't gonna be a SCAR.
If I'm paying close to $3000 for a single firearm, it ain't gonna be a SCAR.
boricua9mm
Member
Why not? What would you choose instead? Assuming we're talking about a military-pattern semi-auto, why do you feel it is a better option than the SCAR?
I'm not saying a SCAR is worth $6k. I'm saying there ain't no way in hell they're only worth $1k.
I'm not saying a SCAR is worth $6k. I'm saying there ain't no way in hell they're only worth $1k.
Gtscotty
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 3,635
Hmmm, maybe I missed something, but I didn't see where Gspn took a jab at Mach4, sure that wasn't someone else? The only thing I saw Gspn post was a free (yet valuable) lesson on the current state of speculation in the gun market (translatable of course to other markets).
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Because I wouldn't spend $3000 on ANY military style semi-auto. If I did, the SCAR would be my first choice. It's just not my primary focus and until I have more money than I can spend, I'll be happy with my lone AR and occasionally shooting Dad's SCAR17. Right now I've got two or three custom revolver projects I want to do and $3000 would nearly pay for one of them.
i think that's all it's worth. just my opinion. you're free to disagree
yes, you laid out the "this should be expensive" case very well. nevertheless, the buttstock sucks. the piston isn't really better than DI. I don't like the way the SCAR recoils. I don't use BUIS, so that's wasted weight for me (although, with the SCAR's reputation for breaking high quality optics with it's jacked up recoil, I suppose I would NEED BUIS if I used a SCAR). I don't want to swap barrels. It's a cool idea, but in practice, I've yet to see a use for it because i don't wnat to hump multiple barrels and multiple types of ammo around.
I'm not saying it's not high quality. FN makes good products and I'm generally an FN fan. I also appreciate the cost of research, marketing, etc. I just think you can make better ARs for $1000ish, so relatively it should price at a discount to the colt. now granted, collector value, and the cool space age look, etc may raise the price, but i'm not paying for that.
yep, i'm aware of that. i didn't mean to imply it was gspn doing the poking.
boricua9mm
Member
FWIW, all of my 5.56 needs are very well met with a good legacy format DI system Suppressed, full-auto and SBR applications are what led us to the piston craze, and neither of them applies to my own shooting. I think a large part of what the SCAR delivers is largely a mystery to most, precisely because where piston applications shine is in those suppressed, full-auto, short barreled applications. While you mentioned a quick barrel change in the context of a field swap, I think it is more likely that this is an Armory/Arms Room proposition. We've all heard complaints about the stock, but ironically, there's no proof (photos, videos, AARs) that they are falling apart in the field. Personally, I find the recoil pulse to be very soft and sweet.
I just don't get how anyone of a technical mind who has experience with the rifle can say "Meh. That gun's worth $1k." Nobody sells Porsches at Honda prices.
I just don't get how anyone of a technical mind who has experience with the rifle can say "Meh. That gun's worth $1k." Nobody sells Porsches at Honda prices.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
While I love my AR's, I will take a SCAR over most of the AR's I ever held. I am he weirdo that loves the but stock on it, and will take a good piston gun any day. It is a $2000-2500 rifle all day long for my use. There is just no way in hades I would pay 6k for ANY battle rifle. To me a M4 select fire or M16 are not worth 6k. They do not fit my usage.. Plus I have fired enough on full auto, the smile isn't there anymore...
Before you flame me, notice I said the M4select and M16 were not worth it to me, not as a fact, but an opinion. Me personally, I love the piston systems. I became a believer with the Hk416. Running 3k rounds almost completely dry with very little buildup on the bolt, plus the bolt was cool to the touch. I did find out the piston needs a good greasing to keep it running good.
Before you flame me, notice I said the M4select and M16 were not worth it to me, not as a fact, but an opinion. Me personally, I love the piston systems. I became a believer with the Hk416. Running 3k rounds almost completely dry with very little buildup on the bolt, plus the bolt was cool to the touch. I did find out the piston needs a good greasing to keep it running good.
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MachIVshooter
Member
Please explain what it does so much better than modern AR, FAL or M1A platforms that justifies it's price tag. I've played with all of the 7.62 carbines, and just can't see what makes the SCAR so great. It has the sharpest recoil impulse, save for the G3, the reciprocating charging handle is a total afterthought (or was designed by a man with no fingers), and the gun honestly just feels cheaper in construction than an AR-10, FAL, M1A, etc.
We also did a side-by-side with an AR-10 carbine. Several shooters, none of whom owned a 7.62x51 carbine themselves besides myself and the SCAR owner. Everyone but the owner of the SCAR preferred the AR-10, and even he admitted that the Armalite was softer shooting.
I only say it's a $1k gun because that's pretty much the bottom line for a decent .308 autoloader. I personally wouldn't even pay that much for one if I had to keep it instead of turning a profit.
It's hardly a Porsche vs. Honda argument. More of a Rolex vs. Timex. One has prestige and a high price tag, the other just works.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I can't agree with any of that. I don't care for the reciprocating charging handle but that's my only complaint. The recoil is very soft, softer than expected. It absolutely does not feel cheap. Every AR variant I handled is too middle heavy, which typically causes the muzzle to wander. The SCAR has much better balance, is very comfortable to carry and shoot. It is significantly lighter than an FAL or M1A.
briansmithwins
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2005
- Messages
- 4,631
Show me a 7.5lb AR with a forward gas piston, monolithic receiver, free floated barrel, quad rails, quick change barrel, that's fully ambidextrous and has a fully adjustable stock.
Keep it under $2500 too, since that's what SCARs were running prepanic.
BSW
Keep it under $2500 too, since that's what SCARs were running prepanic.
BSW
MachIVshooter
Member
The 17 standard is 7.9 lbs according to wiki and 8.18 lbs on FN's website; The Armalite AR-10A4 Carbine is 7.75 lbs. Quad rails, free floated barrel, ambidextrous safety and adjustable stock (pick one of many) are easily had on a .308 AR for well under $2,500. The forward gas piston, monolithic upper and quick change barrel are beneficial exactly how? DI works fine, monolithic upper means squat, and who the heck is running around with multiple barrels to take advantage of the quick change feature? Besides, an AR barrel can be changed in about 5 minutes with a vice and $30 armorers wrench.
If you like your SCAR, fine. It's not a bad gun. But for some of us, it's not the best option, and certainly not at nearly 2 times the price of others. The "benefits" you see just aren't beneficial to many of us. There are also a heck of a lot more options for customizing the AR-10, no matter who made it.
Huh? For most, we want the gun to be well balanced ("middle heavy"). Too much weight fore or aft is what causes them to wander or have too much muzzle rise.
i meant ergonomically. it's nice that it folds, but i'd rather have a magpul UBR.
oh yeah, i forgot the thing i hate about it most... reciprocating handle. ugh!
fwiw, 90% of my carbine shooting past year has been suppressed SBR. noveske switchblock and an H2 buffer.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You want a shotgun to balance in the middle. A rifle should balance forward of the receiver. A shotgun is supposed to swing, a rifle is supposed to hang. The AR-10's I handled felt like a brick with a straw poking out one end and a wooden spoon the other. To balance properly it needs a longer, heavier barrel and that means more weight. Or a long, standard weight quad rail with a Surefire M3LT attached.
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