Scenario/Discussion

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SCENARIO/DISCUSSION

Scene

Late, late night fairly sketchy concert club, ~3:30 am or so. A couple fans, the bar staff and the band (your band) are left in the club, about fourteen people total milling around. Band is still breaking down after the gig, some on stage lazily putting gear away, some having a drink, some chatting. You are alone outside loading your gear out of the club and into your car parked in the alley, like you've done, literally, a thousand times.


Contact:

As you push a hand-truck carrying your amp towards your waiting car, an old-style SUV, possibly a Bronco or Suburban, backs up to the front door of the club and the doors swing open. You don’t take much notice at first, then you see three men in black and red ski masks exit the vehicle fast. One shotgun, one matte-finish revolver, one an unknown longarm - he heads inside and one of the remaining two spots you alongside the building. They approach quickly and shotgun guy levels at you at yells through his mask “Get the **** back inside!†in an accent that could be Filipino or maybe Hawaiian. You go back through the door into the club as ordered.


Inside:

They start yelling to intimidate and control the club “Get the **** on the mother******* ground!â€

“Get down!â€

“Put your ****ing hands behind your backâ€

Everyone is having shotguns stuffed in their faces as they take control of the club in a hurry. One of your bandmates jumps off the side of the stage farthest from the entrance, down into the pit with the monitor console. There’s a door back there, but before he can recover from the leap, he has a weapon leveled at him and is pushed back onto the stage.

At this point you realize there are actually four of them, although with your face two inches from the carpet it’s hard to tell what’s going on. They start to bind people’s hands with white zip-tie cinches. Your turn. Your hands are bound tight. Your keyboard player has a gun pointed at her and is told “B****! Put your hands behind your back!†In the confusion and fright she puts her hands behind her neck instead and the masked thug thrusts the gun at her and screams “What are you ****ing STUPID!?†as he grabs her hands and binds them behind her. Your trombone player next to you whispers “They have walkie-talkies.â€

All fourteen people are now bound and facing walls or floor as the team takes the club owner back into the office and, you suspect, makes him open the safe. It is obviously not the first time he has had a shotgun in his face, and he’s eerily calm. The thugs spend about five minutes taking the cash, the money in the safe, your keyboard player’s purse. Other than that, you’re not sure. You assess your chances of surviving this, and then wait, wait, wait for a shotgun blast to the spine that never comes.

“Stay on the ground!â€

“Don’t get shot!†One yells, leaving it up to you to think about what actions might lead to you getting shot.

“Don’t be a hero!â€

Then they back out of the club, car doors slam shut and you hear the truck, unmuffled, pull away...and then it’s quiet.

“Are they gone?†someone finally asks.

Your trombone player has managed to get his hands free and frees you next.


The Man Arrives

911 is called and five minutes later the cops arrive. One car, lights no siren. He walks through the front door and starts asking questions, another car shows up, then another. After a while the trombone player has to go upstairs and take a leak, but is scared to death. Nobody checked upstairs. Cops tell him not to worry about it, and he reluctantly goes on up.

Statements are taken from some of the witness/victims. Addresses and phone numbers are taken from everyone.

Everybody gets sent home.

As you leave the club heading for your car, your guitar player turns to you and says, “I’m thinking maybe I’ll get a job.â€


Questions:

Keeping in mind that it is illegal to carry a pistol into a club, CCW or not:

1) What would you have done had you been armed alone?

2) What would you have done had you and a friend been armed (at initial contact, you were outside and he would have been inside)?

- Gabe


PS: This actually happened. In Seattle. Just last week. This is a sketchy club, but it's not in the 'hood. I have spent many many nights there mixing bands when I lived on the west coast.

The ‘you’ in this story is a good friend of mine. He does not own a pistol. This is my presentation of the story as related to me by phone the morning after, only hours after he returned home from the scene.

Not all details are certain or necessarily complete, but it should be pretty close to the mark based on his account.
 
If I have any distance when I first see a firearm, and I'm not totally lacking a chance to run to concealment or cover, I think I'd head for the nearest telephone. Carl Lewis wouldn't have a chance of keeping up. That's with or without a pistol.

That said, I might just go on and take a shot, if I'm unseen by the Bad Guys and am confident of a hit. That's a case of "It depends," however. State law plays a part.

Art
 
They knew what they were doing, pulling a gun in that situation would've resulted in a bloodbath. They had a plan from the start, and superior firepower. Giving them no resistance kept everybody alive.
 
If I get this right, the 'you' has been in the club all night. Therefore there is no way he can be legally carrying when first confronted. It would seem that the only legal access he could have to a gun would be if there were one in the vehicle.

If he's got the gun on person & shoots, he's got to kill because if he doesn't, the BG is gonna get him fried. If he does kill, then he's got to sucessfully lie to the cops. Which will neither be easy nor safe to do.

If the gun's in the car, there isn't enough information about the site & people placement in the site for me to try to make a determination.

Being as this is the state of Washington, city of Seattle, liberal hub of the state, he either submits & takes a very real chance of being killed, or shoots & takes a very real chance of spending significant time in prison. Hobson's choice & devil take the hindmost.
900F
 
I'd think the odds are against you unless you have at least two armed friends, all of you follow the same tactics, and the attackers are separated or distracted. Two scenes that come to mind are the Heat bank robbery and the robberies in Point Break. A 4-BG robbery would not be the time to find out my aim is not as good as I thought it was.

I'm open to empirical evidence that suggests being a sniveling victim in such circumstances is not the safest course of action. It just seems like it to me. What's legal and illegal at that point would be irrelevant if I were already carrying. I'd be concerned with staying alive and, if possible, keeping other people alive.
 
i'm with Art:

keep your head down, hope for the best.

confronted with a loaded weapon pointed at you,
the movie version of grab-the-gun
or pull your own is followed by
a high volume of fire for a short period of time.

And maybe your friends, band members
and groupies get "Kent Stated"

this is a NO WIN situation in which everyone got lucky
 
IMO when you see 3+ BGs bail out of SUB and into front I would attempt to hop in drivers seat and go OR move out on foot using cell phone.
I have had it happen ONCE where I left a bar and got gun and went back in moments later (With a Sheriffs Deputy who asked for my help) Unless my wife or family is inside get clear. And to be honest still get clear and call for help.
Have to admit when they start flex cuffing folks I would consider if possible to fight.
 
Coronach,

Man, you got no sense of humor today, do ya?

Previous comment intended tongue in cheek (that means non-seriously); that didn't come thru to well though, so sorry about that.

But now that you mention it, if I worked the graveyard shift, I think I would still apply my comment, and try to make some changes to get me to a better shift.
 
The thing is, L_G, musicians get off work at the end of their work day, same as you. And if you're a musician, you ain't gonna make no money playing matinees...Musicians/night clubs: That's a lifestyle, not subject to shift change. Doesn't matter if it's Willie Nelson, Aretha Franklin or Snoop Doggy Dog.

One night club I had, my first action as non-buddy customers left was to lock the front door. The back door was an automatic always-locked setup. After we cleaned the joint and I'd run the tapes of the money, everybody left through the front, with me watching the street--hand on .45. I'd go out the back door with my left hand holding my briefcase handle and a Streamlight; my right hand was full of LW Commander.

Never had a problem. Made a few stray drunks nervous, occasionally.

:), Art
 
The instant that the noticed/approached me, I would have fled down the alley, if I had not done so at the sight of the ski masks. No way I'd try and fight 3 arned men who have tha drop on me. No way I'd go back into the club. I'd put my car between myself and them as I ran at first, then use whatever else is in the alley as I continued my retreat. If they pursue, I'd find a good ambush spot.
 
Don't bring a handgun to a fight with four BGs armed with shotguns. 4:1 is bad odds, esp. when they have the drop on ou already. 1:1 odds isn't even good when a gun is already aimed your way. The only way I'd made a move for my gun was if the shooting started, or I saw enough evidence to make me believe that the shooting was going to start.
 
Depends on the situation. If I have a 12 ga. staring at me. Yep. I'd think my odds of complying are better than me trying to draw on a BG who already has me in his sights. If the four BG were all busy and doing the same thing and I thought I could take out the BG trying to tie me up, I could then get to cover, etc. then I might.
 
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