School lockdowns - bad idea

[choochboost]

I'm looking for a "security expert" who was featured on Dateline, or 48 Hours, last year who suggested that locking down a school during a shooting was the worst and most dangerous response. The piece also featured him advising young women how to avoid being kidnapped, assaulted, etc. I want to learn more about his specific arguments why a school lockdown is a bad idea. Does anyone remember this feature?

 

[redneckdan]

I'm not sure of the article you are referenceing. My planning while in high school was that if a lockdown ever happend, a chair would be going through a window in the class room and I would be right behind it and heading for my truck.

 

[Pilgrim]

Lockdowns just concentrate the targets. Anyone with breaching rounds for his shotgun can get into a locked school room.

Think teams of terrorist assassins, not just lone shooters: One to gain entry, one to toss satchel charges, and mop up squads to finish the wounded.

Pilgrim

 

[motoman]

Not to mention most school employees have keys to the classrooms. All a shooter would have to do is grab a principal or janitor and take their master key. That would make the "lockdown" pretty ineffective.

 

[Geronimo45]

All a shooter would have to do is grab a principal or janitor and take their master key. That would make the "lockdown" pretty ineffective.

Or shoot through the windows that I see on most college doors. They can't walk in, but they can shoot from 'behind cover' of the door. Fish in a barrel situation.

It's probably a little easier for LE to recognize friend from foe when everybody's neatly locked away. Otherwise, you might have the shooter (minus weapons) fleeing across a field with a bunch of students who'd heard the gunshots - and LE might not be the wiser for hours. By that time, the shooter could be anywhere.

 

[swingcatt]

Is this kind of along the same train of though that I teach in our Personal Protection class about home defense and the use of a saferoom?

Oh wait, in a saferoom you are supposed to have your firearm and ammunition in there (if you don't have it with you allready) and a means to communicate with the police.

Maybe if they had a nice 870 with a box of ammunition behind a glass "break in case of emergency" case, I could see the logic in school lockdowns. Anyone think they will go for that?? - SC

 

[kfranz]

Let's see, the VT shooter, according to statements by those who were intended targets, was stopped from shooting up several classrooms by what?

People blocking the door....

Think teams of terrorist assassins, not just lone shooters: One to gain entry, one to toss satchel charges, and mop up squads to finish the wounded.

You can think that, but it isn't the way it "usually" goes down here in the US. Different scenarios require different responses.

 

[buck00]

The lock down strategy is predicated on the police arriving quickly. In theory, the responding officers know all students are "secure" in rooms and it would make it easier to locate, ID, and neutralize the shooter. This is how it works on paper.

The opposite of a lock down- 500 to 2,500 high students running for their lives in all directions would create immense chaos that would give a shooter (or shooters) some advantages:

a) mobs of kids running across open ground- parking lots, lawns, would be would be vulnerable to a cross fire and/or sniper fire.

b) the shooter could easily ditch his weapon in the confusion and blend in with the crowd, making an escape.


But of course, lock downs currently have serious flaws as some of you have mentioned. Additionally, many schools (both HS and college) have classroom doors that open out (not in), cannot lock, and most obviously- if teachers (or CCW eligible college students) remain unarmed- the shooter can be potentially kept out but not actually stopped.

 

[Zoogster]

It is all about what makes it easier for the officials not what makes you safer. Forcing everyone to stay inside and not allowing people to leave or do much of anything because it is a "lockdown" while simultaneously prohibiting them from having tools to defend themselves creates the most danger for them from a madman. However it does make it less chaotic for police to do a sweep and more easily determine friend and foe without foot traffic going by or the suspect getting away in the chaos.

So more dangerous for everyone, yes. More helpful to police, yes. Usualy however it is not a nutjob intent on killing multiple people and is instead someone who victimized or perhaps killed a single individual and they are insuring they catch him. No lockdown and everyone seeking safety would allow the suspect to get away if he stopped being violent and blended in with the fleeing students, many of whom would have not been where he shot someone and not know him from anyone else. Locking down the situation keeps everyone that knows who it was and what happened trapped in a small area which can allow officers to quickly sweep the scene, determine the shooter and detain anyone trying to flee the scene. In short it makes it more dangerous for you but insures that nobody escapes justice. A better scenario of course would be a lockdown where many of you are armed and therefor not feeling as vulnerable while police secure the scene.

One interesting situation though is this guy at VT is said to have just opened the classroom doors and started shooting without saying a word. So between door open and shooting was little time. However who is to say that the slamming open door or kicked open door is the gunman and not armed police that will shoot you on sight if your armed in such a situation? So ready and armed yet weapon concealed seems to be logical. What is the best way to be capable of shooting a perp if needed quickly, yet not be shot by police in such a situation by being obviously armed and dangerous in an active shooter situation where they won't know you from the shooter?

This of course is for people where that is a response someone is capable of, in CA firearms along with most types of weapons are prohibited both by the schools and state law unless you are a "peace officer engaged in the performance of duties". So even a firearm in a car or truck on the campus would be strictly against the law. So that should deter someone planning to kill themselves or do things punishable by life sentences or death from commiting the felony of bringing them on campus .

 

[bogie]

A lockdown makes it easier for them to examine and debrief EVERY student. They're assuming that the perpetrator may try to fit in and escape among students.

Doesn't do a damn bit of good if all the shooter wants is headlines and suicide by cop.

 

[James T Thomas]

the real handcuffs on the police

Absolutely correct "bogie and Zoogster:"

It's cold; or at least detached. They are interested in arrests, and that the shooter may escape amoung the crowd. Control of the situation. Even if there is more slaughter perpetrated because of containment, they still will either place the shooter in custody or terminate him. So how does the finish of the assault appear?

Either way, the public will not know the rest of the story, and the police will have done their duty. According to the evening NEWS. End of story.

My apologies to so many dedicated officers willing to risk their lives, however, the departments are controlled by chiefs and their subordinates, or a commissioner. In either case the commanders make it to that rank by political maneuvering, political pandering and obediance. They control the police, and the unfortunate officers who have integrity wll follow orders none the less.
Sorry officers, but you will always be told to wait for instructions, or more information, or until another area is secured, or by some bungler that all is OK now. It has happened too much to convince me othewise. Especially if one of my love ones is at risk.

It may not be that way in every department, but consider the large departments such as Chicago, NY, and LA. Or small town Littleton, CO.
Then tell me I'm cynical.

In nature; in the wilds, when animals are under attack by a preditor, their instinct is to flee. Even in herds, so that the predator or predators must quickly choose amoung all those running away -making the odds of being chosen much better for the individual. Only animals corraled are doomed for slaughter with no hope.

 

[kfranz]

In nature; in the wilds, when animals are under attack by a preditor, their instinct is to flee.

Ever hunted rabbits or woodcock? How, again, was Cho stopped from shooting up several more classrooms? That's right, by barring (locking) the door....

 

[James T Thomas]

mistaken

Suppose that Cho had purchased an AK. Some of the terrorists and murderers have them as well as law abiding citizens. Do you think a locked door would have stopped him then?

From some of the eye witness accounts Cho simply gave up and went to easier pickings. Someone else down the hall. A whim. I'm not a gambler willing to risk the odds that a killer would bypass me or mine because he may be in a hurry.

Why is it that you are so convinced that hiding and barracading and waiting for help to arrive -or not is a good strategy?

I will give you this. If I were in a foxhole and the enemy were above ground approaching me, say through razor wire or some sort of barricade; then the concept would be a good one. Oh, yea, I almost forgot! I would be armed and could shoot back.

If "barring the door" is sound advise for defense, then why did this killer, Cho, use chain and padlock to confine his victims?

The rabbits or woodcock that I've hunted had excellent camouflage.
Now, even if you are in BD's, someone can detect you huddling inside an institution dorm or classroom. Anyway, if you will be honest here, I'll admit that I've missed a bounding rabbit at times, and those woodcock are difficult to hit when they flee too. At least more so than if they just sit still and let you take aim!

Please read the thread on this page: "30 of 32 died after the cops arrived."

 

[kfranz]

Do you think a locked door would have stopped him then

Yeah I do. He chose rooms with unblocked doors because he couldn't get into those with blocked doors. Yes, he fired some shots into the blocked rooms, but as with the rabbit/woodcock you don't see, your odds of getting a hit are pretty low. As with the wildlife you mention, predators choose easy prey rather than more difficult.

Why is it that you are so convinced that hiding and barracading and waiting for help to arrive -or not is a good strategy?

In a ground level room with windows to the outside, taking off through the windows once the door is blocked is probably a great idea. Leaving an interior room with a locked and blocked door? Not as good an idea...

As for difficulty hitting stuff on the run, do you think your odds would go up if the rabbits were about 5 and a half feet tall, weighed about 140 lbs., and there were 200 of them crammed into a 16 ft. wide hallway, all waiting in full panic mode to try to escape through a couple of doors three people at a time?