oh and do you have a recommendation on powder for these weights and the intended use? I have h322, h335, benchmark and imr 4198 on hand but will buy more.
69gr .224 with short throat rifle?
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Blue68f100
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I have not had any luck with the H335, those others do. I've used Varget, Tac, CFE-223, IMR4198, and a few others. I've got the best luck with Varget and Tac. Varget would be my first choice since it's not temp sensitive like Tac. Remember the Hornady 68gr BTHP-Match bullets are 0.090 longer than the Sierra's 69gr HPBT-M so the loads will not be the same. I seam to shoot Sierra the most, just what my guns like. I use 2.260" OAL for these match bullets. Some magazines have problem with that length, some don't. Determine you OAL before you start the load workup, so you not jammed into the lands.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
As a side note something you may want to consider is first make a good chamber casting using Cerrosafe (BROWNELLS - CERROSAFE® CHAMBER CASTING ALLOY). This way you will know exactly what your chamber and leade are. There are dozens of online videos as to how to use it. Then if warranted have someone who knows what they are doing use a "throater or throating reamer" to increase the chamber leade. This old thread mentions the subject. I would start with making a chamber casting, a Google of throating a chamber will give you an idea of what a throater is and how it is used but I suggest you find someone who knows the procedure.
Ron
Ron
I don't now if it will be an advantage at only 300 yards. Dunno. Anyway, you got some good advise on the 68/69 vs 73+ Gr bullets.
Holly cow Ron I didn't think you were around here anymore.
I did send an email out to savage in regards to it do you think that would be the better thing to have them do it? When I sent the rifle in for the bolt face to be replaced the smith told me it he would not touch the throat if I was reloading cause if it shoots well it might not afterwards and it scared me away.I think I know someone whos a member here and might see if we can set something up and ill give them a try before buying different bullets. Thanks for the advice once again!
MDof2
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It depends more on the length and twist rate than it does the weight.
Tinker here:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
Grab input data here:
http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html
I push 68's out to 300 regularly in 1/9 barrels. Varget or Benchmark or IMR4895 or IMR4064 are my powders of choice.
If I recall your Axis is a 1/12 twist, so 63g Sierras would be right in the sweet spot, and should have no throat issues.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
No, I haven't gone anywhere.Holly cow Ron I didn't think you were around here anymore.
While I agree I would not throat a perfectly good shooting rifle I would go ahead and make a chamber casting. wouldn't hurt to do that. I've been laying out electric for the garage I added this fall which was well behind schedule but that's another story. I still get here and actually post once in awhile. Ron
1-9 twist.
MDof2
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Even better.
Varminterror
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@ohihunter2014 - pm me your address, I’ll send you some bullets to test fit in your short throat rifle. If memory serves, I have the 69 and 77 SMK, 77 TMK, 75 A-max/ELD, and 73 ELD on hand of which I don’t mind sparing a few. Might have a couple I’m forgetting. You’ve been wringing your hands way too long about the short throat and 1 in 9” twist. One of those times you have to decide whether you’re going to **** or get off of the pot - you own that Axis, gotta either get a new rifle, or figure out what’s gonna shoot in what you have.
I’ve had my best luck with Varget and 8208 for 223rem. Loaded dozens of powders, but these two have stood above the rest. Varget typically gets the speed 8208 can’t reach, but 8208 gives remarkably small SD’s. Tac, 4895, CFE223, and H335 run well for me also, but if I can’t do it with Varget or 8208, it probably can’t be done.
I’ve had my best luck with Varget and 8208 for 223rem. Loaded dozens of powders, but these two have stood above the rest. Varget typically gets the speed 8208 can’t reach, but 8208 gives remarkably small SD’s. Tac, 4895, CFE223, and H335 run well for me also, but if I can’t do it with Varget or 8208, it probably can’t be done.
Well I just got an email from savage after inquiring about the short throat and possible fix and it read. All savage rifles chambers are cut to sammi specs. you can send the rifle in on your own, strip it down from accessories and leave a note in the box with all my info and the issue. She also states that all savage rifles are tested for the sammi specs to fit factory ammunition but they can certainly test the chamber and use factory ammo to see if its sammi spec.
Now here is my thing my other savage axis the throat is so long that a 55gr v max seated to the lands I'm 99% sure there wouldn't be enough neck tension on the bullet. sounds to me they aren't doing a very good job at quality control if they are using sammi chamber specs?
Has anyone every heard of sammi chamber spec?
I'm going to hang onto it and see how these match bullets workout first. The way the email sounds to me is they are going to shove some factory probably fmj in it and call it good. When I sent it in for the bolt I asked about the short throat and was told it was fine and the smith was at the range and shot it and it shot very well.
Now here is my thing my other savage axis the throat is so long that a 55gr v max seated to the lands I'm 99% sure there wouldn't be enough neck tension on the bullet. sounds to me they aren't doing a very good job at quality control if they are using sammi chamber specs?
Has anyone every heard of sammi chamber spec?
I'm going to hang onto it and see how these match bullets workout first. The way the email sounds to me is they are going to shove some factory probably fmj in it and call it good. When I sent it in for the bolt I asked about the short throat and was told it was fine and the smith was at the range and shot it and it shot very well.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Yes, and you can find them here for your reading pleasure. The 223 Remington cartridge and chamber specifications can be found on page 68 of the link. Note the drawings reference MAXIMUM CARTRIDGE / MINIMUM CHAMBER.
Ron
I guess I may have worded that one wrong. I have seen the chart of the rounds before but the way she made the email seem was the rifle throat is reamed to a sammi spec (never heard that one) so I guess that wouldn't be a chamber spec like I said before.
. I'm kind of ignorant to this stuff.
Blue68f100
Member
Most reamers are pretty close to the same for the main body, till you get into leads. This is where all the differences is. If it a min spec reamer like the one I have, the leads will only be 0.025", where most others are 0.055"-0.060". Beside the lead distance they are at different angles too, 1.5-3.0°. Throating reamers are not very expensive $50. But it takes a special setup to use them, to control the depth.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
It's actually in there, in the SAAMI Drawing but we have to know what we are looking for and the current SAAMI drawing sucks for clarity. Note on the chamber drawing the 1.787 length dimension, now note the 1.812 dimension. The 1.787 dimension has a little triangle beside it meaning it is a reference point. So now we take the 1.812" dimension and we subtract the 1.787" dimension and we get 0.025" which is the minimum freebore dimensional length for the 223 Remington cartridge. The minimum diameter at this point is 0.224". Now all of this is not real important to carry around in one's head but when the lady on the phone says your chamber meets SAAMI Specifications for a 223 Remington chamber she is telling you your chamber falls into and meets those mind boggling numbers.I guess I may have worded that one wrong. I have seen the chart of the rounds before but the way she made the email seem was the rifle throat is reamed to a sammi spec (never heard that one) so I guess that wouldn't be a chamber spec like I said before.
All of that plus what Blue68F100 has already added.
Ron
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This is exactly the issue I had with my Savage 12FV in .223. With Sierra Match Kings, the 52 and 53 grain had to be loaded shorter than Sierras recommended length. The 69 grain, at full specified length, 2.260 were no problem at all, and I could have made them quite a bit longer. The recommended 2.250 for the 52 and 53 grain SMK was too long.
That said, I never saw rifling marks on the bullets, I wondered if there fat little ogive was sticking in the free bore. 69 grain SMK were no problem at longer length at all.
The Hornady OAL tools were not consistent, I had to remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt and use the bolt closing method.
Even with wooden dowel down the muzzle sandwiching the bullet gave inconsistent readings, which I can usually overcome. This and the lack of rifling marks on the projectile led me to wonder if those fatter lighter SMK projectiles were hitting the guns known tight freebore. (At least I have read that it is tight)
Russellc
Man this thing is freaking crazy!! I found some 55gr Hornady SP w/c I tried years ago and didn't work and figured try them again and used the OAL took and came up very short with 20 readings being within 2k of each other they need to be seated well below the cannelure. I'm fine with that cause I don't crimp but you guys will love this one below!
55gr Nosler Varmageddon ballistic tip can be seated waaay longer than any bullet I have tried. I do 20 checks with the OAL tool and like @RussellC states I get inconsistent readings with the tool with this bullet. One reading could be say 1.854 and another 1.860 and then a bunch in between so I use the lowest I got as my lands reference and seat 10-15k below that and these suckers still came out really long. I also colored the bullet with a sharpie and chambered it and not a single mark. I bet that bullet from bottom of the case to bullet tip is 2.260 but v max must be under 2.230.
55gr Nosler Varmageddon ballistic tip can be seated waaay longer than any bullet I have tried. I do 20 checks with the OAL tool and like @RussellC states I get inconsistent readings with the tool with this bullet. One reading could be say 1.854 and another 1.860 and then a bunch in between so I use the lowest I got as my lands reference and seat 10-15k below that and these suckers still came out really long. I also colored the bullet with a sharpie and chambered it and not a single mark. I bet that bullet from bottom of the case to bullet tip is 2.260 but v max must be under 2.230.
Varminterror
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Sometimes the sharpie trick doesn’t work as expected - smoke a bullet, as in legit smoke, and bingo, rifling witness...
I can say, with the 3 caudle poly rifling in Black Hole Weaponry barrels, I can’t use sharpies, I HAVE to use real smoke, or dykem.
I can say, with the 3 caudle poly rifling in Black Hole Weaponry barrels, I can’t use sharpies, I HAVE to use real smoke, or dykem.
How are you smoking them? Candle?
Varminterror
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Candle, match, lighter, it all works. I usually end up using the yellow tip of a long grill lighter, as I keep a few in my workbench near my reloading bench... for some reason... they’re just always in there, and I end up using them for one thing or another...
Mine was way crazy inconsistent. I was mainly getting from 2.230 to 2.285, ogive measements with Hornady tool were a little closer, 1.9125 down to 1.89!
I got a few WAY crazy measures, like 2.3075 to 2.3155!
After total frustration, I took out the bolt and removed firing pin assembly, and used the close bolt method, it gave a consistent 2.2775, or 1.8890 ogive measurement. Same bullet used where possible, not hard in Hornady tool, little more difficult when setting bullet in brass...I did use bullets that measured same in tests.
I will try some with "smoke test" I couldn't help but think bolt close method might be a little short...
Russellc
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