I am interested in trying a heavier bullet in my savage axis 223 heavy barrel but something I have ran into with every bullet I've tried I cannot use book OAL due to the short throat of the rifle. 55gr V max calls for 2.250 but I have to seat at 2.235 and that's about 10k from the lands. With a heavier bullet its obviously longer and having to seat deeper to chamber will raise pressure, I'm wondering if I am going to run into issues with high pressure sooner than later? I'm guessing a chronograph would be my best tool for this?
69gr .224 with short throat rifle?
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Allen One1
Member
ohi
Have you checked the head space on this rifle? I have never seen one with a short chamber like that, I don't think most factory ammo would fit in that gun without being pushed into the lands.
Just taking a random swing here, are you confusing length to the lands with overall length of a loaded cartridge? The chamber length is actually associated with the ojive of the bullet and not the length to the tip of the bullet.
Are you using the same tools to measure the chamber length to the lands and the cartridge length to the ojive?
Have you checked the head space on this rifle? I have never seen one with a short chamber like that, I don't think most factory ammo would fit in that gun without being pushed into the lands.
Just taking a random swing here, are you confusing length to the lands with overall length of a loaded cartridge? The chamber length is actually associated with the ojive of the bullet and not the length to the tip of the bullet.
Are you using the same tools to measure the chamber length to the lands and the cartridge length to the ojive?
Allen.
Some factory ammo will not fit in the gun. I ran into some several years ago before i began reloading and the bolt was always hard to close but not knowing what i was doing i would slam it home and fire away. I use the Hornady OAL tools and do the math with my once fired cases and the modified case and 2.235 OAL from base of the case to tip of the bullet gives me 10k off the lands. I do use the Ogive tool but don't remember the length for that off the top of my head. I had Savage look at the rifle when it wouldn't eject/extract cases and they said the throat is short and he could ream it out for me but if i'm reloading just adjust accordingly because my accuracy might take a dump.
I wasn't sure with the 69gr bullet if the Ogive was longer and would contact the rifling or if it was just the tip of the bullet that looked extremely long. When i seen the bullet i said holly cow that's really long.
Allen One1
Member
Sounds like you have covered all the bases related to chamber measurements. I would load a little light and run them over a chronograph for sure. I wouldn't think you would see massive swings with a .015 shift in bullet position but it will cause the pressure to rise. I wonder if the 68 gr Hornady is shorter than the 69 grain Sierra. I have both of them but can't get to them right now.
JimKirk
Member
You need to use the Ogive tool !!
Think about it ...what ever part of the bullet that first contacts the rifling is the point that should be measured from the base of the brass to that first contact point .....any part of the bullet that is smaller in diameter does nothing but touch air ... and possibly the front of the magazine...
That measurement becomes a set number for that bullet ... You can use that number to base your of the lands number ... This applies to this particular bullet ... Other bullets with different ogives will have their own base number...
Think about it ...what ever part of the bullet that first contacts the rifling is the point that should be measured from the base of the brass to that first contact point .....any part of the bullet that is smaller in diameter does nothing but touch air ... and possibly the front of the magazine...
That measurement becomes a set number for that bullet ... You can use that number to base your of the lands number ... This applies to this particular bullet ... Other bullets with different ogives will have their own base number...
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Blue68f100
Member
I have a min spec AR and the heavy 65-69gr Sierra would chamber but a 52 gr HPBT-M would be 0.040" into the lands. I ended up cutting the leads to accept the light bullets.
Not uncommon on what you have. Just start low and workup looking for pressure signs as you go.
Not uncommon on what you have. Just start low and workup looking for pressure signs as you go.
someguy2800
Member
The leade on the longer match type bullets is a much shallower angle than most 55 grain bullets, so for the same OAL you will be further off the lands than you will with a 55 grain. For example if I have my seating die setup for say a 55 gr hornady sp at mag length and I switch to a 68 or 77 match bullet I have to screw the seating stem in a few turns to keep it at mag length.
Also not that bottleneck rifle cartridges are not quite as sensitive to seating depth changes as a pistol cartridge is. The percentage of case capacity reduction is much smaller in a rifle. It has some effect but don't be afraid of seating .040" deeper than the data. Having it jammed in the lands has a much larger effect on pressure than seating a bullet a few thou deeper.
Also not that bottleneck rifle cartridges are not quite as sensitive to seating depth changes as a pistol cartridge is. The percentage of case capacity reduction is much smaller in a rifle. It has some effect but don't be afraid of seating .040" deeper than the data. Having it jammed in the lands has a much larger effect on pressure than seating a bullet a few thou deeper.
I had an old timer at my club help me when i first started messing with reloading and about a year ago i switched over to Nosler Varmegeddon 55gr HP and showed him one and he says in a loud voice that "over half the damn bullet is in the case" I said yeah, its the throat of the rifle i cant seat any higher then that. He asked if i worked up and i said yes i'm watching what i'm doing and he brought up the high pressure when seated deeper so just wanted to check. I didn't want to purchase the bullets if i couldn't use them.
someguy2800
Member
It does change the pressure to some extent, it's just not very dramatic
You know, you may want to contact savage about it. While your obviously making the necessary adjustments it might be worth having them replace the barrel with one thats throated correctly. Save some headaches and possibly an accident.
I cant honestly say as to what issues you may have with deep seating the 69s, ive never been able to get near the lands on any of my .223/5.56s
I cant honestly say as to what issues you may have with deep seating the 69s, ive never been able to get near the lands on any of my .223/5.56s
someguy2800
Member
If your only seating to 2.245 to get to the lands with a 55 vmax I don't think you will have to seat shorter than the listed length with a 69 bthp in order to stay off the lands.
When i very first started reloading and not knowing a hard closing bolt was a bad thing I couldn't get factory or reloads to eject and sometimes not extract. I called savage and had a shipping label that day and called then i found out that i might be into the lands from the great advice on here and another forum so I colored a bullet at book spec and chambered it and it was covered in scratch marks so i tried it again several times and again had scratch marks so i tried an FMJ and SP and again book OAL had scratch marks. Someone gave me a few boxes of wolf, PMC and something else and those were hard to close the bolt on also. I shipped the rifle and called them and the service dept said the gunsmith would look at that also. I called a week later and was told the chamber, throat, etc was polished to remove any burrs, new bolt face and that i may have a short throat rifle but if im reloading don't worry about it just adjust to the rifle. I was advised they could ream the throat if i had any other issues but i may effect accuracy. I told them leave it alone i would just adjust accordingly.
Fast forward to last year i purchased the headspace comparator, OAL tool, mod case and bullet comparator and measured it probably 50 times and each time from base of the case to bullet tip I couldn't get any farther then 2.245 for an average. I tried Nosler 55gr HP and same thing i would be way shorter then book spec and also with 50gr Vmax, 55gr SP and FMJ. I just chalked it up to that's the way the rifle is and deal with it but all these bullets are shorter then the heavier ones. Now if i move to my savage axis 223rem standard barrel and use the OAL tools the bullet almost falls out of the case before touching lands.
clearcut
Member
I think Savage should fix it if it shoots poorly after they ream it then they should fix that as well!
CC
CC
spitballer
Member
Savage is known for quality target rifles and it may be that the short leade was by design. I would strongly recommend matching the bullet with the twist rate before any reaming. In my case, with a 12" twist I knew I couldn't fire anything heavier than the Berger 64's so I told Pac-Nor to leave the throat as short as possible and I'm very glad I did. Given the choice between seating deeper into the case or seating closer to the lands I seat closer to the lands, but I always use soft, thin-jacketed bullets. IMHO any over-length bbl should be treated cautiously also.
fotheringill
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By all means, give Savage a call.
My experience with the exact same thing with 73 gr. Bergers was that they will not even look at it if there is reloading going on. I am not knocking them whatsoever, they have been great on other issues.
What you may have to do is use a reamer or go to a competent gunsmith.
My experience with the exact same thing with 73 gr. Bergers was that they will not even look at it if there is reloading going on. I am not knocking them whatsoever, they have been great on other issues.
What you may have to do is use a reamer or go to a competent gunsmith.
well I just found a club that shoots 300yard matches with F class targets and I'm thinking about giving it a shot but I know ill need something heavy like a 73-75gr bullet. I thought about it cause I scrubbed that gun raw this weekend and still getting short reading with the OAL tool and got in there with a pen light and nothing seems to be blocking it so I sent savage an email about the short throat. Part of me says leave it alone and part of me says make them fix it. I checked my Axis 1 in 223rem also and I can go as high as 2.265ish until I'm into the lands with a 55gr v max. I guess ill just have to take a chance and grab some 73-75gr bullets and see how far they can be seated.
tkroenlein
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Savage used to use the 69gr MK (maybe still do) for daily production accuracy testing. Load one and see where you're at.
The .22 caliber 68/69 gr. match bullets are intended for magazine length loading in AR15's. I suspect you can find a COL for your rifle that won't present a problem. If you can find a bullet, run it in with your OAL gauge and see where you stand. I think 68/69's are entirely suitable for shooting at 300 yds. especially if your rifle is short throated. With a 1:9 twist 77's are probably as heavy as you can stabilize anyway.
The 69 gr. Sierra/Nosler bullet has a different shape than the 68 Hornady, which is longer and has a greater taper thru the ogive. Something to do with secant ogive vs tangent ogive I believe. The Hornady might be able to be loaded slightly longer before it touches the lands. Once again test it if you can.
If you can't get you hands on either bullet, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a couple. I have both Nosler and Hornady on hand.
The 69 gr. Sierra/Nosler bullet has a different shape than the 68 Hornady, which is longer and has a greater taper thru the ogive. Something to do with secant ogive vs tangent ogive I believe. The Hornady might be able to be loaded slightly longer before it touches the lands. Once again test it if you can.
If you can't get you hands on either bullet, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a couple. I have both Nosler and Hornady on hand.
Blue68f100
Member
You normally don't give any thing up by loading short, as you work up the load, except using less powder. When I machined the min spec chamber for my 223, I had existing ammo I wanted to use. During my setup the Sierra 69gr HPBT-M would chamber at max length and not get into the lands. Then I tried the 52 & 53 gr Serria Match bullets. Neither of those would chamber, or come close. The rim was setting high (0.050") in the case guage I made with the reamer and barrel drop off. But this was kind of expected since I picked a reamer that only had 0.025" lead, where the average is 0.055". I used a throating reamer to adj it to match my other rifle. So I did not have to keep the ammo specific to the gun. Now it did not take much to make them fit. But in doing so I made the jump longer on the heavier bullets. So it's a trade off. If your only going to shoot the heavy bullets, Pick 1 and set the chamber up for it. Doing this it may not shoot the lighter rounds as good. With a 1:9 twist barrel your max is going to be around 65-69gr. My 1:9 shoots anything well with 65gr SGK and lighter, but starts to opening up with the 69gr HPBT-M. My only requirement was to shoot the 65gr SGK as this was my varmint gun. Even the cheap Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT shoots 1 moa in this barrel.
Thanks!
Its primary use is a varmint and paper punching rifle at 100yards with 50gr V max. These matches are only once a month and run 6 months out of the year so the heavier rounds wont be put downrange like the smaller 50-55gr varmint rounds. My concern with seating the heavier rounds or even the 53gr rounds i'm waiting on backorder would be losing velocity with less powder in that small case or increased pressure. I noticed with the v max rounds i really have to get them moving when past 150yards because they wont fragment like they should and i get wounded woodchucks. I've been holding off getting the 53gr V max due to possibly having them being longer and having to cut back on velocity if that makes sense.
For a 300yard match do you think losing some velocity by seating deeper/lowering powder charge will effect it any? I mean the weight should buck the wind better than the speed right?
Just throwing some stuff out there. Really intrigued by this stuff and willing to learn.
Blue68f100
Member
Depending on the barrel you may not loose any at all. You can get the same pressure with less powder. Makes it a little more sensitive to charge but that's it.
I have several bullets that I have to set 0.040" shorter to stay out of the lands and give me the min jump I prefer. Once you get under a 0.020" pressure start increasing as you get close. So if you set your OAL first then work up the load your good. But if you lengthen the OAL you may need to back back down.
I have several bullets that I have to set 0.040" shorter to stay out of the lands and give me the min jump I prefer. Once you get under a 0.020" pressure start increasing as you get close. So if you set your OAL first then work up the load your good. But if you lengthen the OAL you may need to back back down.
Why switch bullet weights?
I guess i was going by what some of the guys in my 300yard match thread were saying about using a heavier bullet for wind.
Is this not correct?
Blue68f100
Member
It want help you unless you have a twist rate to stabilize it. With a 1:9, I would use the 68-69gr bullets. These will fit the magazine with no problem. Once you have your dope on how wind moves these little bullets around, it's just a matter of doing the correction. The hard part is reading the wind. That is a science in it self.
I take it 1-9 wont stabilize the 73-75gr bullets? Sorry for all the questions just trying to learn for future.
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