School newspaper article, looking for response ideas...

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ny32182

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The following article by a Mr. Skip Eisiminger, english and humanities professor, titled "America has quaint notion on guns", appeared in the Clemson University school newspaper last week. I was thinking of sending in a resonse if I can find some good, but not over the top replies to some of his points. I was hoping some people here could provide some inspiration. So, without further delay...

---------------------

I vividly recall the day my father announced that a family friend, another Army officer, had been awakened the night before by a noise downstairs. In a sleep deprived stupor, he’d grabbed his .45 from the bedside table, stumbled to investigate, spied a shadowy figure moving about in a suspicious way, and killed his wife of 15 years. Dad turned in his .45 the next morning. I suppose that if my father and I had done a lot of deer hunting, I’d have the blithe attitude toward guns one of my Georgia cousins has: his father built their home around a six foot tall, 2.2 ton gun vault, and its still not big enough to hold the family’s arsenal.
The hot-cold attitude toward firearms in our family reflects an ambiguity that has log been part of American culture. Nowhere is this more evident than in the mixed signals sent by small town Southern law enforcement. A friend of mine who teaches at Presbyterian College tells of a biologist who annually volunteers for the thinning of the Clinton squirrel population. One Thanksgiving at 6 a.m., the professor located his 20-gauge shotgun, donned his orange vest, unleashed his dog, and started walking the half mile to campus. He hadn’t gone a block when a police sedan pulled up beside him. “Damn,†the biologist thought, “Here I am with a loaded gun within the city limits, 20 extra rounds in my vest, and no hunting license.†He need not have worried. Without stopping, the officer rolled down his window and said, “Hey, mister, you’d better get your dog on a leash!â€
Some have traced our gun schizophrenia to the Constitution itself. The Second Amendment states, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.†If a student today submitted this sentence to me, I’d circle the commas following “State†and “Armsâ€, question the archaic capitalization of the three nouns, but otherwise it’s grammatically correct and clear. Which is not to say that it’s logical; for starters, what is there in the people’s right to wield arms that insures a well regulated militia, not a ragtag posse? The Second Amendment, while once relevant and necessary, is now outdated. The prospect of a million fit sharpshooters driving in from the suburbs answering the call of President Bush is a quaint and dangerous notion. The improbability of a Swiss-style militia working on a country as large and divers as ours is one reason there’s a professional, not amateur, armed force seeking to restore order in Iraq at present. I understand the Framers’ concerns about a standing army, but their fears derived primarily from absolute monarchs and despots, not a President who can be impeached or voted out of office.
The US Constitution is a flawed human document, but as one who has long advocated tighter controls especially on handguns, I must sadly conclude that the Second Amendment does guarantee ordinary citizens some gun ownership. But since the AK-47 has usurped the musket, the most powerful armed force in human history has mushroomed from 840 men(all the first Congress allowed), and our “men and women in blue†have replaced the virtually nonexistent colonial police force, some revisions to our national “mission statement†are needed. Recall that during the two weeks that D.C. sniper was killing 12 innocents, guns killed another 1,200 Americans who died all but unmourned. Society and technology change, and the documents that govern us should evolve as well.
We might learn a lesson from the Germans who hunt and compete in marksmanship contests just the way Americans do. However, when a shooting contest or the hunting season rolls around, our German cousins go to a state-regulated vault and secure their weapons, not the den, the attic, or a box under the bed. Does this cause some inconvenience? Of course it does, but it may account for fewer than 100 German citizens on average being killed a year by guns as opposed to over 10,000 a year in this country. Somehow, we have to take the casual out of casualty.
 
I'm not going to do a point-by-point because I really don't have the patience for this sort of hackneyed ink-dribbling. However, I find the following statement to be patently and personally offensive:
However, when a shooting contest or the hunting season rolls around, our German cousins go to a state-regulated vault and secure their weapons, not the den, the attic, or a box under the bed. Does this cause some inconvenience? Of course it does, but it may account for fewer than 100 German citizens on average being killed a year by guns as opposed to over 10,000 a year in this country. Somehow, we have to take the casual out of casualty.
As a gun owner who regularly competes, shoots for fun, and teaches others about safe gun handling I am sick and tired of being blamed for the stupid acts of others.:fire: Please, tell me, Skip, how would locking my guns up in a building far away from where I live reduce crime or accidental deaths? In my years of handling firearms on an almost daily effing basis, I have never come close to accidentally or deliberately harming another person. NOT ONCE.

I am not responsible for such occurrences, so stop blaming me!

I am fed up with being the whipping boy of mechanically and politically ignorant dimwits who think that treating me like a child is the best way to stop other people from harming each other. Yet people like Skip continue to perpetrate this moronic doctrine of collective responsibility as some sort of panacea for their own irrational beliefs. And here I'd thought we'd left the doctrine of collective responsibility behind in Kindergarten.

Nope, el Skippo is happy to paint every gun owner with the same broad, bigoted brush, claiming that he is somehow smart enough to recognize that we're all too dumb to take care of ourselves. Never mind the fact that Skip probably can't even field-strip a 1911. Never mind that he hasn't a clue on how to adjust the sites on a rifle to compensate for wind. Never mind that he couldn't even begin to tell you or I the difference between a single-action revolver and a striker-fired Steyr M9. Never mind that he hasn't the first idea of how to properly employ a sling on a rifle. Never mind that if you handed him a loaded handgun and asked him to make it safe, he'd probably recoil in terror, finger ignorantly on the trigger through the whole episode. Never mind the fact that Skip has never even read The Four Rules.

Never mind all that. Despite his raging, self-imposed ignorance regarding firearms he knows better than you and I, dear reader. To him it doesn't matter if you're a Korean War vet who was a member of the Army Marksmanship Unit and that you've been competing in bullseye for longer than any member of Generation Y has been walking the Earth. Never mind all that. To Skip all gun owners are the same stupid, inbred hilljacks. To Skip the only difference between gun owners of flavor A and gun owners of flavor B is whether they are going to shoot you down out of hatred or because they're too stupid to know how to safely handle a gun.

I'll tell you what, Skipster. I'll consider listening to what you have to say on the gun issue the minute that you show up at my house and can demonstrate how to safely handle 30 different makes and models of firearms. Until then you're nothing more than a useful idiot who is regurgitating the same tired, bigoted, and threadbare arguments that statists have been hitting the public over the head with for the last forty-odd years.

Mr. Skip Eisiminger, you are worthy of nothing more than my unbridled contempt. :barf:
 
Germany doesn't have 1% of our shooting deaths because they don't have access to their guns, it's because they have a different culture than we do here. If the same law was imposed here I'd venture to say that more law abiding citizens would die than before.
 
A pro-RKBA lawyer should be able to help with the definitions of the words used in the original document as they have changed over the years and change by context, as I'm sure the good professor knows quite well.

Points I have to make in any RKBA discussion and specifically in response to his article are as follows:

The Amendments were ordered specifically for importance. It's no mistake the 2nd Amendment ensures the possession of firearms to the public and that the 1st ensures that they can speak their minds without government censorship.

The plain and simple truth is that people in power are not benevolent and the 2nd Amendment is there to ensure that the words spoken freely thanks to the 1st Amendment are taken seriously by those in power. The 2nd Amendment not only ensures the individual’s right to perform their duty of self-protection but forestalls the need for terrible and bloody revolution to preserve individual liberty.

History shows us no government is enduring and the USA will eventually fall. When our government changes it will hopefully be by a mandate of the people and not by a bloody revolution to regain lost liberty. Ensuring the freedom of the American people is the responsibility of the American people and the 2nd Amendment gives the people the teeth they need to accomplish this responsibility.

Limiting firearm ownership is no different than limiting automobile ownership. No one needs an SUV outside of a very few specialty jobs. No one needs a car capable of exceeding the speed limit. We still allow these things even though they contribute to far more deaths and injuries by any ratio or measure than firearms. They are no more necessary but are tolerated, just as all firearms should be.

The constitution is indeed a flawed human document. These things were attempted to be made plain in the language of the day but they couldn't foresee the desire of the people to disarm themselves so readily. Had they known they certainly would have made provisions for changes in vocabulary and vernacular over the years.

The "harm" firearms do in the hands of the law abiding citizen is far outweighed by the good. Modern media is decidedly biased against firearms and preferred to remain ignorant itself. Someone thinking for themselves and looking at the information available to them will come to there senses just as I did after escaping the oppressive opinions I had thrust upon me in school. You must look beyond the individual failings and see the greater picture.

Although massively armed his kin have not caused him any great alarm. He can see the harmlessness in which they coexist with their firearms but denounces their right to do so? He may choose to not be armed but what justifies disarming his kin? What wrongs have they committed?

The only way for the powerful in this country to become more powerful is by convincing the uninformed that they need to give them their power. If we lose the strength of the 2nd Amendment, then the only way to regain that power is through violence. Those in power will never give it back without a struggle. Let's keep the power with the people. Lets remain a country where the government exists to serve the people and not the alternative.

That's as cogent as I can make it.
 
"some revisions to our national “mission statement†are needed. "

I'll go for that! Lets change the wording to state that it is illegal for any federal, state, city or county government to regulate or tax the manufacture sale or ownership of any firearm.

That should clear things up.
 
ttbadboy,

Just ask Justin if you can use his rebuttal. That should suffice.

GT
 
"The Second Amendment, while once relevant and necessary, is now outdated. The prospect of a million fit sharpshooters driving in from the suburbs answering the call of President Bush is a quaint and dangerous notion."

Outdated? In 1941, Japanese Admiral Yamamoto said, "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

Is what happened just 62 years ago "outdated" and "quaint?"

The notion that God-given rights can become outdated is preposterous. To argue that the AK47 has usurped the musket (a questionable statement; I would propose that the AR15/M16 has) is to invite the argument that the computer has usurped the quill pen. Should we not allow advancements in technology because they might be misused by some?

Perhaps we should have banned automobiles before they became prevalent. The mental image of being stuck in rush-hour traffic with 75,000 horses "dropping apples" might by itself be enough to dissuade the good professor's arguments against advances in technology.

In the end, professors such as "Skip" live in an walled-off world where the most outrageous ideas are debated and celebrated, while the tried and true beliefs of the rest of society are regarded as the products of simple minds. Unfortunately, for such intellectual elites, even a mugging or assault does not change their views.
 
Thank you, everyone brought up good points. I will begin to craft a response tomorrow if I have time... hope no one minds if I blatantly steal some of the ideas above.:scrutiny:
 
I suppose Skippy is much more in the know than even George Orwell, who wrote...

"THAT RIFLE HANGING ON THE WALL OF THE WORKING-CLASS FLAT OR LABOURER'S COTTAGE IS THE SYMBOL OF DEMOCRACY. IT IS OUR JOB TO SEE THAT IT STAYS THERE."

However, I suppose reading Orwell would probably just make Skippy sad, just like reading the Bill of Rights makes Skippy sad......at least that's what he says in his quaint little column.

hillbilly
 
What really rubs me wrong is this guy having the temerity to compare us with Germany.

I could say that when Germans want to kill large numbers of people, they found gas is more efficient, but I won't . . .

Or I could say that Germany doesn't have the problems our diversity gives us, and point out that our violent crimes are disproportionately concentrated in certain demographic groups that Germans don't really have to deal with . . . but I won't say that either.

I'll just say that this country was settled by people trying to GET AWAY from Germany . . . and England . . . and France . . . and Poland . . . and dozens of other countries all over the world. And we do NOT want the foreign customs we or our ancestors fled being imposed on us here.
 
“I vividly recall the day my father announced that a family friend, another political officer, had been awakened the night before by a noise downstairs. In a sleep deprived stupor, he’d grabbed his copy of Locke from the bedside table, stumbled to investigate, spied a shadowy figure moving about in a suspicious way, and accidentally read to his wife of 15 years. Dad turned in his philosophy books the next morning.

“I suppose that if my father and I had done a lot of reading, I’d have the blithe attitude toward books one of my Georgia cousins has: his father built their home around a library, and its still not big enough to hold all the family’s books.

“The hot-cold attitude toward knowledge in our family reflects an ambiguity that has long been part of American culture. Nowhere is this more evident than in the mixed signals sent by small town Southern law enforcement. A friend of mine who teaches at Presbyterian College tells of a biologist who annually volunteers for the removal of banned books. One Thanksgiving at 6 a.m., the professor located his collection of proscribed literature, donned his brown vest, unleashed his dog, and started walking the half mile to campus. He hadn’t gone a block when a police sedan pulled up beside him. “Damn,†the biologist thought, “Here I am with a load of banned books and no information-trafficking license.†He need not have worried. Without stopping, the officer rolled down his window and said, “Hey, mister, you’d better get your dog on a leash!â€

“Some have traced our book schizophrenia to the Constitution itself. The First Amendment states, ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.’ If a student today submitted this sentence to me, I’d circle the confusing punctuation marks and question the archaic capitalization, but otherwise it’s grammatically correct and clear. Which is not to say that it’s logical; for starters, what is there in the people’s right to freedom of speech and religion that insures well-educated citizens, not wild-eyed fanatics?

“The First Amendment, while once relevant and necessary, is now outdated. The prospect of a million well-spoken orators driving in from the suburbs to petition President Bush for a redress of grievances is a quaint and dangerous notion. The improbability of a Greek-style democracy working on a country as large and divers as ours is one reason professional, not amateur, politicians are seeking to restore order in Iraq at present. I understand the Framers’ concerns about factions, but their fears derived primarily from absolute monarchs and despots, not a President who can be impeached or voted out of office.

“The U.S. Constitution is a flawed human document, but as one who has long advocated tighter information controls especially on hate speech, I must sadly conclude that the First Amendment does guarantee ordinary citizens some book ownership. But since the word processor has usurped the quill pen, the information media have mushroomed from a few small newspapers, and our ‘ivory-tower academics’ have replaced the virtually nonexistent colonial intelligentsia, some revisions to our national ‘mission statement’ are needed. Recall that during the years that Oral Roberts was conning the Christian faithful, books filled the minds of millions of other Americans with dangerous thoughts. Society and technology change, and the documents that govern us should evolve as well.

“We might learn a lesson from the 20th-century Germans who read and wrote just like Americans did. However, when Germans found a disagreeable book, they would simply burn it. Does this cause some inconvenience? Of course it does, but it may account for fewer than 100 German citizens on average being corrupted a year by books and other media as opposed to over 10,000 a year in this country. Somehow, we have to take thefreedom out of freedom of speech.â€



Another way to look at it perhaps.

~G. Fink
 
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Go Tigers (class of '74). Good job done on FSU.

To your problem. A few random thoughts in no particular order.

--Private message Trooper. He is Cherman and can speak with authority on Cherman gun laws.

--The Kentucky long rifle was the most technically advanced firearm in the world at the time. It could easily kill at 300 yeards. The British army Brown Bess was inaccurate anywhere past 25 yards. The second amendment was written with the view to providing the militia the most advanced weaponry available at the time.

--At the time the US was being formed Europe heavily regulated who could own and use firearms. In general firearms were limited to the constabulary, the military, and the ruling class. Hunting was strictly regulated and only possible only to the ruling elite. The second amendment guaranteed access to firearsm by people denied access in Europe. In other words the second amendment stands the european social order on its head. In the US common, everyday Joe Sixpack citizens has the same status as european elites.

--The bill of rights in general and the second amendment in particular was written just after having been at war for 8 years with the mightiest military on the planet at the time. The Second Amendment was written with a view to keeping tyranny from ever arising in the US. Some say the second amendment guarantees all other amendments in the bill of rights will stay valid. I prefer the following quotation from Silveri v. Lockyer:
All too many of the other great tragedies of history—Stalin’s atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust,to name but a few—were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations. Many could well have been avoided or mitigated, had the perpetrators known their
intended victims were equipped with a rifle and twenty bullets
apiece, as the Militia Act required here. See Kleinfeld Dissent
at 5997-99. If a few hundred Jewish fighters in the Warsaw
Ghetto could hold off the Wehrmacht for almost a month with
only a handful of weapons, six million Jews armed with rifles
could not so easily have been herded into cattle cars.
My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons
of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines
the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw
the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second
Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those
exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have
failed—where the government refuses to stand for reelection
and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the
courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees.
However improbable these contingencies may seem today,
facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make
only once.


Fortunately, the Framers were wise enough to entrench the
right of the people to keep and bear arms within our constitutional
structure. The purpose and importance of that right was
still fresh in their minds, and they spelled it out clearly so it
would not be forgotten. Despite the panel’s mighty struggle
to erase these words, they remain, and the people themselves
can read what they say plainly enough:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people to
keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The sheer ponderousness of the panel’s opinion—the mountain
of verbiage it must deploy to explain away these fourteen
short words of constitutional text—refutes its thesis far more
convincingly than anything I might say. The panel’s labored
effort to smother the Second Amendment by sheer body
weight has all the grace of a sumo wrestler trying to kill a rattlesnake
by sitting on it—and is just as likely to succeed.
5984 SILVEIRA v. LOCKYER

Good luck. Keep the esteemed forum posted.

Go Tigers !!!
 
Hell yeah, Go Tigers!!

Here is the reply I typed up tonight. It will be revised for spelling/grammatical/factual errors, and then submitted to the editor. Some underlining and italics have been removed. I drew several ideas from the posts here. Let me know what you think:

----------------------------------


Of America, Guns, and the Constitution

Last Friday, I came home from work and found a copy of The Tiger on the coffee table. While waiting for my chicken teriyaki to warm up in the microwave, I came across “America has quaint notion on guns†by Professor Eisiminger, and couldn’t help but feel some of his points warranted reply.

Prior to any debate about guns in America today, the intentions of the Founding Fathers with regard to the Second Amendment of the Constitution must be clarified. At the time the United States was being formed, European rulers heavily regulated who could own and use a firearm. In general, firearms were limited to the constabulary, the military, and the elite social class. The Second Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed all citizens access to firearms in a deliberate departure from standard European social order; an attempt to ensure there would be no “European elite†class in the United States. The Bill of Rights, and the Second Amendment in particular, was written immediately following eight years of war with the most powerful military force on Earth. As such, there is no piece of evidence indicating that the Second Amendment refers to anything except an individual right to own a militarily serviceable firearm, nor is there any suggestion whatsoever that “need†or “sporting purposes†have any bearing at all on the conditions of said Amendment as the gun control advocates of today insinuate.

The beauty of our Constitution is that it transcends changing times, technologies, and political climates. The Bill of Rights can be more accurately described as the “Bill of Limits on the Power of Governmentâ€, and it doesn’t grant any rights. It merely recognizes inherent rights and ensures that the government cannot be so bold as to trample them without consequence. The idea that any such civil liberties can become outdated is preposterous, and claiming that the Second Amendment applies only to the simple technology of the time is tantamount to saying the same of any other part of the Constitution. If Second Amendment rights are limited to muskets, then First Amendment free speech rights are limited to quill pens and scrolls of parchment. After all, the Framers couldn’t have foreseen the proliferation of modern electronic media, could they? Of course not. Guns in the hands of the people amount to power in the hands of the people, which is the defining characteristic that sets our nation apart from all others. To remove ultimate authority from the people is to remove the very quality that makes America what it is, and opens the door to a myriad of further injustices. Some argue that this notion doesn’t apply in modern day America. However, I find myself unable to overlook the following quote from Silveri v. Lockyer:

---

"All too many of the other great tragedies of history – Stalin’s atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust, to name a few – were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations. Many could well have been avoided or mitigated, had the perpetrators known their intended victims were equipped with a rifle and twenty bullets apiece, as the Militia Act required here… If a few hundred Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto could hold off the Wehrmacht for almost a month with only a handful of weapons, six million Jews armed with rifles could not so easily have been herded into cattle cars.

My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed – where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once."

---

In my years of handling firearms, I’ve never caused an accident of any kind, nor have I ever been hunting even a single time, and thankfully I’ve never been in a situation where I really needed a gun. Do these facts, combined with the unfortunate truth that there are those in our society that use guns to commit crime, comprise a compelling reason to strip me and millions of others of necessary liberty? Would we be so quick to limit other Constitutional guarantees? I hope not. I’ve never needed my rights to legal council or a fair trial either, but likewise, I certainly hope they are there if my individual situation somehow deteriorates to the point that I require them.

Professor Eisiminger suggests that the United States could benefit from adopting Germany’s policy of state control of all privately owned firearms. The problem with this and every other “gun control†method of addressing crime is that it simply doesn’t take human actions and motivation into account. The focus is on inanimate objects, mere tools, rather than on the criminal behavior itself. Societal and cultural differences, rather than gun laws, are what separate Germany and the United States. Take England for example, a society from which our own is much more closely derived. The United Kingdom enacted all but total bans on civilian ownership of firearms relatively recently. Violent crime rates have been on a steady rise ever since, including a 35% increase in gun related crime last year alone. It’s been proven over and over: when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns… and criminals in England are obviously well aware of that fact.

Professor Eisiminger also mentions that 1200 people across the country were killed with guns during the two week D.C. shooting spree last October. Of course this is very unfortunate, but the other side of the story is that an average of approximately 77,000 other violent crimes were prevented by law abiding gun owners during the exact same time period. We must look beyond individual failings and see the greater picture: guns are used for more good than harm.
 
It's too long, I don't believe it would be printed in that form. Remove the "intro" and shorten the quote down to:

The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed – where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.

If you're sure you even want to go down that route. While that stuff may sound good to us, using it could allow you to be construed as paranoid, perhaps even during the "editing" process. If you do use it, attribute it to Justice Kozinski of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals rather than Silveira vs Lockyer.
 
Looks good to me. I argee that it is a bit on the long side however...


I think these were the best parts:

"Professor Eisiminger suggests that the United States could benefit from adopting Germany’s policy of state control of all privately owned firearms. The problem with this and every other “gun control†method of addressing crime is that it simply doesn’t take human actions and motivation into account. The focus is on inanimate objects, mere tools, rather than on the criminal behavior itself. Societal and cultural differences, rather than gun laws, are what separate Germany and the United States."

"The Second Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed all citizens access to firearms in a deliberate departure from standard European social order; an attempt to ensure there would be no “European elite†class in the United States. The Bill of Rights, and the Second Amendment in particular, was written immediately following eight years of war with the most powerful military force on Earth. As such, there is no piece of evidence indicating that the Second Amendment refers to anything except an individual right to own a militarily serviceable firearm, nor is there any suggestion whatsoever that “need†or “sporting purposes†have any bearing at all on the conditions of said Amendment as the gun control advocates of today insinuate."

"The beauty of our Constitution is that it transcends changing times, technologies, and political climates. The Bill of Rights can be more accurately described as the “Bill of Limits on the Power of Governmentâ€, and it doesn’t grant any rights. It merely recognizes inherent rights and ensures that the government cannot be so bold as to trample them without consequence. The idea that any such civil liberties can become outdated is preposterous..."

Also, you could remind the professor that the Germans had a similar gun policy in the 1930s, and that policy is in part to blame for the deaths of millions of Jews.

And this little bit of info I found on another site might be a bit of an eye opener:

"The number of physicians in the U.S is 700,000. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000. Accidental deaths per physician are 0.171. (U.S. Dept of Health & Human Services)

The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups)are 1,500. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. "

Please let us see the final version and let us know how it works out. Good luck...
 
Ask him the simple question:

When the state run gestopal come, and he is now a serf, how will he fight back? By suing the government?

When a thief comes, what will he do, say "Hold on a moment while I dial 911 and wait 30 minutes for the police to come.. While you are waiting, care for coffee and scones?"

:barf:
 
 “Recall that during the two weeks that D.C. sniper was killing 12 innocents, guns killed another 1,200 Americans* who died all but unmourned.†What? Unmourned? were these people some type of clones? Did they not have family?

 “Of course it does, but it may account for fewer than 100 German citizens on average being killed a year by guns as opposed to over 10,000 a year in this countryâ€. Another “Whatâ€. In 2 weeks guns killed another 1,200 Americans*. OK. Than we see that there are 10,000 killed each year by guns. If you take 52 and divide it by 2 you have 26. So lets take 26 and multiply it by lets say 1,200. 31,200. What is it 10,000 killed or 31,200 killed? Who cares about facts.

 Outdated. The new way to implement “Re-Historyâ€. I can’t think of a better way to change today but by going back in history and changing that, history. Liberal ideology is nothing more than the old slight of hand card tricks that you might use at a party.
 
Just ask Justin if you can use his rebuttal. That should suffice.
My response probably isn't the best one to use. Not if the plan is to open a civil dialogue, at least. Every so often something rubs me the wrong way and my response is a rant completely from the gut. A guy reading a rant about what an ignoramus he is probably isn't going to be all that conducive to changing his mind.
 
Does this cause some inconvenience? Of course it does, but it may account for fewer than 100 German citizens on average being killed a year by guns as opposed to over 10,000 a year in this country.

Looking at just the numbers is deliberatly being misleading. The fact that we have a population that's 40x as large might have just a little bit to do with the fact that we have more deaths.

We likely have more deaths from cars, boats, planes, drowning, lightning, frostbite, rattle snakes and cattle too.
 
Looking at just the numbers is deliberatly being misleading. The fact that we have a population that's 40x as large might have just a little bit to do with the fact that we have more deaths.

This is a good point... is our population really that much greater than theirs? This would shrink the apparent per capita disparity somewhat.

Thanks for the input guys, I too think its to long the way it is, and will be editing it and sending it in as soon as I get a chance.
 
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