school shooting here in Arkansas today

[Double Naught Spy]

No, but you can't prove the opposite either,

No, I can't, but the law(s) is already in place. So the burden of proof is on those wanting to make a change who claim the law is bad and needs to be removed. I never claimed it did anything beneficial, but it was claimed or intimated that it didn't and hence should not exist. Fine. Prove it.

Does it sound argumentative? Sure. But chest thumping is cheap. Coming up with real justification shows the true to competence in the argument and justification is only needed on one side - the side demanding change.

Honestly, I would like to lose the argument. I would like somebody to come up with the stats that show that such laws don't work and are in fact detrimental to safety and be able to prove this with causation (versus correlation). I know that from what I have researched, I haven't been able to do it myself. So I was really hoping one of the chest thumpers could beat me into the proverbial ground with facts and causation as opposed to weenie rhetoric.

We can play the rhetoric game all day long, but that won't really get us anywhere, will it? If you want to change a law that is bad, then come up with the proof and let's take it to our respective legislators. If you can't, then the weenie rhetoric just comes across as whining. It'ss embarrassing when gun folks whine.

 

[Officers'Wife]

At the moment this seems to be a difference that makes no difference. If this was indeed a 'gun free campus' it's simply another example of the state seizing the power of self defense and failing miserably. In that light it's in the same vein as a shooting in a 'gun free city' such as Chicago or New York City.

In my eyes, gun bans and gun free zones is in the same catagory as allowing the state to be your parent in terms of your protection and well being. Ask any foster child and they will tell you the state is a very poor parent that is above the child abuse laws.

Selena

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, I am not sure how had this not been a GFZ that things would have been any different. All of the parties involved were under the age of 21. The victims were of the ages 18 and 19. They certainly would not have been carrying rifles out on the street, would they, and they were too young to carry handguns. So the GFZ issue is moot in terms of self defense.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/10/27/arkansas.shootings/

Now, it you want to argue about age factors that might be another issue, but even then, tentative.

Of all the armed robberies and other such crimes (attempted rape, rape, etc.) in non GFZs, how many are actually known to be stopped by people with guns? I am not talking about the hypothetical unreported numbers that are claimed, but actual known events. How many? What percentage are they of the total known events?

 

[Mr Crowley]

Of all the armed robberies and other such crimes (attempted rape, rape, etc.) in non GFZs, how many are actually known to be stopped by people with guns?

That's kind of irrelevant isn't it?
1. Even if the percentage of stopped crimes is very low; the fact that SOME have been stopped still makes guns viable for defense.

The US D.o.J website says there are on average 27.7(attemped or completed) rapes per 1000 college women.
source:http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, unarmed women fight off unarmed rapists successfully 72% of the time. If he has a knife, she'll fight him off 58% of the time. If he has a gun, she has a 51% chance.


Common sense can dictate the rest.
Would it be fair to assume that since so many unarmed women can fight off the guy; then armed women would do just as good or better?

IMHO a .357mag to the head stops a rapist in his tracks, but don't you think "Hey I've got a gun" would usually stop it even faster.


A little site note:
I'm sure there is no study to show this is true or not, but it seems valid to me.
1. If you have to use a gun in defense; wouldn't it be more likely that the criminal is either permanently stopped from re-offending or captured since they might be forced to go to the hospital to treat injuries.

 

[Justin]

Calling this a school shooting is hyperbole.